What Healthcare Leaders Will Take Away
This episode is for physicians, APPs, nurses, and clinical leaders who have found themselves on the receiving end of the care they usually deliver. Dr. Lillian Liang Emlet sits down with her co-host, Klaus Grim, PA-C CPC ELI-MP, for a different kind of episode. Klaus’s mother-in-law was diagnosed with a sudden metastatic cancer, and he spent the following months working clinically, coordinating her care at an unfamiliar institution, and holding a family through her final weeks.
Listeners will take away four things. First, why self-care is a skill built on ordinary days rather than summoned in a crisis. As Klaus puts it, “when crisis hits, it is very hard to even think that there’s a way to take care of yourself.” Second, what actually held for Klaus: talking to people instead of bottling it in, protecting the quiet minutes he already had, and asking his leadership for shift swaps. Third, a working method for advocacy inside a system you do not know: ask what the process is, stay kind with the staff enacting policies they did not write, and keep going until you find the person who can help. Fourth, the three coaching skills he leaned on hardest: acknowledging and validating, open-ended questions, and silence.
The story is recent and unresolved. Klaus is direct that “every day still has its different challenges.”
Why Does Self-Care Have to Be Built Before the Crisis, Not During It?
He is also clear about what self-care is not. “It’s not as simple as just a massage,” he says. What he means is closer to a felt physiological shift: “It’s really actually embodying and feeling that reset and feeling refreshed in the midst of a lot of the chaos of every day.”
Dr. Emlet names the pattern she hears from clients: maybe someday I’ll take care of myself, or maybe someday I’ll get coaching. Klaus’s answer to the someday framing is direct: “there’s always times for you, and it’s not selfish.”
What Actually Held for a Clinician Working Full Time Through a Family Crisis?
- Talking to people. Klaus thinks this was the most foundational thing he did: “not bottling it in.” He names who he leaned on: “I had my mother to talk to, I had friends to reach out to, I had colleagues that I could bounce things off of.” Sometimes the ask was simply “I’m struggling here.” Sometimes it was the opposite: “Can you talk about something else, something positive?”
- The solitude he already had. He points to the minutes most clinicians overlook. Driving to the hospital counts: a podcast episode, some music, “or just listening to some quiet sounds or nothing at all.”
- Exercise, honestly reported. He kept trying to exercise, and his own account is that “I think it did definitely fall through the creaks” with everything going on.
- Asking his employer for room. “I was very lucky to be able to ask for swaps of shifts,” he says, crediting leadership at his job for time off so he could be at the bedside.
Dr. Emlet’s summary of the pattern is that people hide, tough it out, and that this is probably the worst thing they can do. What she hears in Klaus’s account instead is connection, near or far, by video, in person, or by telephone, balanced against deliberate alone time.
Carrying this right now?
If you are a clinician carrying a family crisis alongside a full clinical schedule, a clarity call is a place to think through what you can put down and what you need to ask for. Book a clarity call.
What Changes When You Receive Care at an Institution Where You Don’t Work?
What filled the rest of the gap was his network. Friends working in different institutions and specialties gave him ideas to test. He is candid that this is not available to everyone: he says he could not imagine how someone outside that environment manages it.
The practical lesson he draws is about policy, not medicine. “The policies that are in one institution oftentimes aren’t in the other,” he says, which is why advocacy became the work, and why it took, in his words, “a lot of time and energy to advocate.”
For the wider view of what this work is and who does it professionally, see our episode on what patient advocacy looks like in practice with Dr. Angie Ingraham.
How Do You Advocate for a Family Member Without Becoming the Difficult Family?
His second principle is who you aim it at. Bedside nurses are enacting “these policies that they didn’t even create,” so, in his words, “let’s not get frustrated at them.” What worked was asking the staff directly: “What’s the process?”
Third is the reframe that changed the conversation. It is easy, he says, to get upset and ask “How could you do this? Why?” He asked something else instead: “What can I do to help support this?”
Fourth is persistence without heat. He was, he says, “probably bounced around a few times, which is completely understandable,” until he reached one woman through the hospital’s disability office who could actually help, an office he had not known existed as a resource in some hospitals.
His summary of the method: “It’s just figuring out who’s the right person to talk to, and approaching it with kindness.” His read on the people he met is worth noting for anyone bracing for a fight: “most of the time everybody was very sympathetic and understanding and doing everything that they possibly could.”
Underneath all four is one standing rule he returns to repeatedly: “always bring kindness to the people you talk to.” His view is that “kindness oftentimes is undervalued in the work that we do,” and that when it is present, more actually gets done.
What Did That Advocacy Actually Change?
The context matters. His partner’s parents had been together for over 40 years, and Klaus says “we knew that it didn’t have that much time.” Getting there took numerous phone calls.
His conclusion is about relationships rather than logistics: “I think people often underestimate the power of connection,” and not only for the family doing the advocating.
He also credits the staff who made it possible. Many requests, he acknowledges, cannot be met.
Before the crisis, not during it
Departments and health systems that want their clinicians to build these skills before a crisis arrives can explore our coaching for physicians, APPs, and healthcare leaders.
What Should Clinicians Do Differently When the Family Member Is Also Medical?
The larger shift in his own practice came from his coach training. Three habits stand out:
- Take the bird’s-eye view. He describes stepping back to “really feel and sense the emotions going on, the challenges that people are experiencing” across everyone in the room.
- Translate, then verify. He now communicates “in very layman terms,” and asks people to reiterate what they understood. His reason is specific: when a diagnosis is critical, “some people just go blank,” say they understood, and do not want to inconvenience the clinician by saying otherwise. Each family member, he adds, oftentimes takes away different information.
- Care for the family, not only the patient. He checks in with new updates and asks the family directly how they are doing. Questions, he points out, “are not just when you’re at the bedside.” They surface later, as people process. Being available for those matters, and “saying when you don’t know, you don’t know is totally understandable.”
Dr. Emlet hears this as the same posture Transforming Healthcare Coaching® uses in Systemic Team Coaching®: an outsider watching how information lands across nurses, physicians, specialists, and family, then supporting the whole group to work together more effectively, with the family understood as part of the care team.
His limit is worth stating plainly. His stated aim was to “not dictate care or tell anybody how things should go.” The goal was to help everyone understand complex information well enough to decide for themselves. The decision, he says, belongs to the patient first if they have capacity, then the healthcare proxy, then the closest family.
Which Coaching Skills Mattered Most in Serious Illness Conversations?
- Acknowledging and validating. He was tracking whatever emotion was present. “Sometimes it was anger, sometimes it was frustration,” sometimes sadness, and he treated it as right for that person in that moment. What acknowledgment buys is simple: the person feels heard.
- Open-ended questions. Instead of direct questions, he asked things like “What are you understanding from this situation?” and “What questions do you have?” and what would support someone in that moment.
- Silence. He calls this the hardest one for him. With his partner, an only child, he sometimes had to “step back and just be there, and just my presence, and not say a word.” The pull to fill a silence with something positive is strong. What he learned was to read the room and trust that “silence is okay, and oftentimes that’s part of healing as well.”
Dr. Emlet connects the first two to the empathy skills she teaches with VitalTalk for delivering serious news, where acknowledging and validating sit inside the NURSE mnemonic. She adds a note on the second: powerful, expansive questions beat yes-or-no ones, and normalizing “what questions do you have” matters because having questions is normal. Her own observation is that curiosity is the skill adults quietly drop: “for some reason as we become an adult, we think we shouldn’t be asking questions.”
This is also the honest boundary of the episode. Neither coach claims these skills change a prognosis. What Klaus describes them changing is how a family understood what was happening, and whether they felt accompanied while it did.
Hélène Thériault makes the fuller case for these skills inside a routine clinical visit in the coach approach in clinical practice.
Key Takeaways for Healthcare Leaders
Frequently Asked Questions
Is it selfish to focus on self-care while a family member is seriously ill?
How can a clinician advocate for a family member at a hospital where they don’t work?
What is the most useful thing to say when a hospital policy is blocking what your family needs?
How should clinicians handle a patient’s family member who is also a clinician?
Which coaching skills help most in serious illness conversations?
How do I know a family really understood a serious diagnosis?
Share it with someone
Klaus and Dr. Emlet recorded this for the colleague who is going through something right now. More conversations on sustainable practice are in the Wellbeing Collection.
Episode Transcript
Download transcript (.txt) ↓︎Segment 01
The skill you build before you need it (From 00:00)
Cold open: Klaus on why self-care habits have to be practiced while life is ordinary, and what a real reset feels like. Lillian opens the episode by naming the twist — this week the hosts are on the other side.
Segment 02
Being on the other side of the care you deliver (From 01:00)
Lillian frames the episode around clinicians as patients, surrogates, and family members, and asks what it is like to be a user of American healthcare. Klaus says sharing these experiences is how we learn and grow.
Segment 03
Why “someday” is the wrong plan for self-care (From 02:00)
Lillian names the pattern she hears from clients — maybe someday I’ll take care of myself. Klaus answers that something destructive to your life makes it hard to even think about self-care, so the knowledge and skills have to be built first.
Segment 04
Where the skills come from, and who Klaus is (From 03:00)
Klaus credits his coach training and the Transforming Healthcare Coaching team for the balance and reset he can now find, then introduces himself for newer listeners: physician assistant in emergency medicine and urgent care, and professional coach.
Segment 05
A sudden, metastatic diagnosis (From 04:00)
Klaus describes what happened: his mother-in-law was diagnosed with a sudden metastatic cancer that surprised everyone and was extremely challenging for his partner, for him, and for his partner’s father. Lillian asks what habits he had built before those months.
Segment 06
What a clinical background gives you, and what it doesn’t (From 05:00)
Lillian names the impossible arithmetic of working while coordinating care at unfamiliar hospitals. Klaus says there is always time for you and it is not selfish, then credits his broad general medicine scope and his experience delivering serious news as foundational.
Segment 07
The basics: talk to people, don’t bottle it in (From 06:00)
Klaus names communication as the most foundational thing he did — his mother, friends, and colleagues — including the option of asking someone to change the subject to something positive. He begins on the value of time alone.
Segment 08
Solitude, exercise, and asking for shift swaps (From 07:00)
Klaus counts the drive to work as reflective time, admits exercise fell through the cracks, and credits his leadership for shift swaps and time off so he could be at the bedside. Lillian starts on how many people hide instead.
Segment 09
Receiving care outside your own institution (From 08:00)
Lillian summarizes what she is hearing as connection balanced with alone time, then asks what it was like to receive care at a bigger subspecialty center that was not his own. Klaus says healthcare operates differently institution to institution.
Segment 10
Why policies differ, and what advocacy costs (From 09:00)
Klaus describes using friends across institutions and specialties as sounding boards, and says the experience taught him the importance of patient advocacy, because policies differ and it took real time and energy to advocate.
Segment 11
Kindness beats reactivity (From 10:00)
Klaus names his standing rule: even when emotions are running, bring kindness, take a step back, ask powerful questions, and listen. Lillian asks him for a concrete example of something he had to advocate for.
Segment 12
The overnight policy and a different question (From 11:00)
Klaus describes the situation: a couple together over 40 years, a serious diagnosis with a poor prognosis, an institution that did not allow family to stay overnight, and limited time. He explains the reframe from “How could you do this?” to “What can I do to help support this?”
Segment 13
The private room, and her final weeks (From 12:00)
The outcome: a private room, and her husband recognized as her support person so he could stay each night. Klaus describes it as transformative in her care and says it gave the family some closure, then names the power of connection for the patient as well as the family.
Segment 14
Advocating professionally, not adversarially (From 13:00)
Lillian asks him to walk through the process both emotionally and strategically, and distinguishes this from public accounts of poor treatment: the question is how to advocate in a way that gets the job done. Klaus starts with curiosity rather than frustration, and turns to the bedside nurses who have to enact policies.
Segment 15
Ask the nurses; find the right person (From 14:00)
Klaus says the move is asking staff what their process is, since the nurses at the bedside did not create the rules they enforce. He describes making phone calls, being bounced around a few times, and reaching one woman through the hospital’s disability office who could actually help.
Segment 16
What the staff did, and what changed in his practice (From 15:00)
Klaus says the method is finding the right person and approaching it with kindness, and reports that nearly everyone he met was sympathetic and doing what they could. Lillian asks what has changed in how he practices in the emergency department.
Segment 17
When the family member is medical (From 16:00)
Klaus acknowledges that a lot of these changes could not have been made, and says the staff knew where she was in her prognosis. He then reframes the medical family member as a resource, with his partner’s father relieving real work at the bedside, and turns to how his coaching background shaped everything.
Segment 18
The bird’s-eye view and plain-language teach-back (From 17:00)
Klaus describes stepping back to sense the emotions in the room and communicating in layman’s terms, because a critical diagnosis can make people go blank, report understanding they do not have, and avoid inconveniencing the clinician. His fix is having people reiterate what they heard, and he begins on caring for the family members present, not only the patient.
Segment 19
Checking in on the family, and saying “I don’t know” (From 18:00)
Klaus describes constantly checking in as new updates come, and points out that questions surface after the bedside conversation ends. He notes that saying you do not know is acceptable. Lillian begins drawing the parallel to systemic team coaching, watching things unfold as nurses and physicians come in.
Segment 20
Family as part of the care team; patient advocacy (From 19:00)
Lillian unpacks the different perspectives in the room, names the family as part of the care team, and describes stepping back to be more objective and support everyone to interact more effectively. She connects it to the podcast’s earlier conversation with Dr. Angie Ingraham of True North Patient Advocacy.
Segment 21
Informing decisions without dictating them (From 20:00)
Klaus says he tried not to dictate care, but to help everyone understand complex information and decide for themselves. He names the order of decision-making: the patient first if they have capacity, then the healthcare proxy, then the closest family.
Segment 22
Coaching a family through end-of-life decisions (From 21:00)
Lillian reflects on how hard it is to weigh options when time is limited, and says she tells clinicians they are there to coach the family through it. She links to the earlier episode with Hélène Thériault on the coach approach, then asks which coaching skills Klaus had to reach for.
Segment 23
Three coaching skills that carried him (From 22:00)
Klaus names acknowledging and validating first — tracking whatever emotion was present and letting the person feel heard — then open-ended questions, with examples of what he asked.
Segment 24
The hardest one: silence (From 23:00)
Klaus names silence as hardest for him, describes simply being present with his partner without speaking, and says he learned that silence is often part of healing. Lillian ties his three skills to the VitalTalk empathy teaching and the NURSE mnemonic.
Segment 25
Curiosity as an adult skill (From 24:00)
Lillian makes the case for powerful, expansive questions over yes-or-no ones and for normalizing questions, then observes that adults tend to stop asking them. She invites Klaus to add anything she did not ask about.
Segment 26
Still fresh: build the skills before the crisis (From 25:00)
Klaus says the situation is still recent and every day brings different challenges, then returns to his central point: build self-care skills while things are going well, because it is a skill you practice, and it is more than a massage or a pedicure.
Segment 27
What he would do next time (From 26:00)
Klaus thanks Lillian for the space, says patients are lucky to have healthcare professionals who keep improving the patient experience, and reflects on his own key learnings for a next time. He invites listeners to comment on what resonated, and Lillian begins thanking him for sharing his story.
Segment 28
We’re real people too (From 27:00)
Lillian tells listeners on YouTube, Apple, and Spotify that real crises happen to the hosts as well, and says she is grateful for a story about self-compassion and about how compassion for yourself and the healthcare team supports advocacy. Klaus adds that healthcare professionals are not immune to the everyday illnesses their patients face.
Segment 29
One thing for your own self-care (From 28:00)
Klaus closes on how important it is to take care of ourselves and to take care of others, and invites listeners to commit to one thing for their self-care. Lillian asks listeners to share the episode with a colleague going through something right now, and gives the team’s email addresses.
Read the full transcript
Transforming Healthcare Coaching Podcast — Episode 118: Being on the Other Side of Healthcare. Host Lillian Liang Emlet, MD MS CHSE CPC ELI-MP in conversation with Klaus Grim, PA-C CPC ELI-MP. Published July 20, 2026.
Klaus Grim: If we build the skills while things are going well day-to-day, we are more likely to be able to practice that self-care when crisis hits. You may think it's selfish. You may think it's impossible. and, it's like a skill that you have to practice. It's really actually embodying and feeling that reset and feeling refreshed in the midst of a lot of the chaos of every day, because there's challenges that happen every single day.
Lillian Liang Emlet: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Transforming Healthcare Coaching Podcast. And so this week, we're doing a little bit of a different twist and a turn, because a lot of times things hit close to home. And so for some of you, you may have noticed that Klaus really hasn't been on the podcast hosting for a little bit of time. It's been a really busy season. And in our personal lives, the reality is we often are on the other side. We're on the other side as either the patient or the surrogate or the family member. And we're going to talk a little bit with Klaus about what it's been like to be on the other side when we have to be the ones receiving the medical care or advocating for a loved one or a family member. And how do we balance it all? How do we even get through how hard it is to be a user, a utilizer of healthcare in America this day and age? So Klaus, thank you so much for being willing to share your story and experience here on the podcast.
Klaus Grim: No, of course. I think through sharing these experiences is how we learn and how we grow as human beings, and this whole process has really taught me about it's so important to take care of ourselves in very challenging situations, which is the everyday life of a healthcare professional.
Lillian Liang Emlet: Yeah. I know like for many of our coachees or our clients, they often say that, maybe someday I'll take care of myself, or maybe someday I'll get coaching, or maybe someday something else. and so why is self-care so important, especially even when you yourself are either going through medical treatment or, supporting someone in your family and you're dealing with personal lives? how does self-care show up for you?
Klaus Grim: Yeah, that's a great question. And I think developing the skills to take care of yourself important because when moments like this hit, something destructive to your life that change your daily routine and the way you've been living life happens, it's hard to even think about how to take care of yourself. And so I think there's this almost a two-part where you really need to gain the knowledge and skills to figure out how to take care of yourself first, In the daily life of professional you are, how can you develop the skills to just be well and joyful and happy in the best way possible? when crisis hits, it is very hard to even think that there's a way to take care of yourself because you're so focused on that challenge. So fortunate enough having this coaching background, been on this incredible journey with you, Lilly and our team at Transforming Healthcare Coaching have developed a lot of those skills to really find my way of balance and joy and to, rest and reflect and, reset when, things get challenging. And it's not easy, right? And it's not easy for anybody. And so this might be a good time just to briefly explain what kind of happened. And for those who are newer to our podcast, welcome. I'm Klaus again, and I am a physician assistant, and I currently practice in emergency medicine and urgent care, and I'm a professional coach. And one of the things that really suddenly happened to me is my mother-in-law was diagnosed with a sudden, cancer that was pretty metastatic, it hit all of us by surprise, and it was extremely challenging for my partner, for me, my partner's father, and all the family involved. And it really taught me so much about what it's like to be on the other side. And yeah, I've had medical issues. I think we all have experienced something in ourselves and our families, our dogs And I'm really fortunate to be able to speak a little bit about that, and kind of dive into, the challenges that we had and how to take care of yourself in that process
Lillian Liang Emlet: Yeah. I'm curious, what helped you in terms of your habits that you feel, that you developed before these last couple months. what helped you get through? What were some of the daily routines or the things that you leaned on in times when... You know what I mean? Between working and also being at different hospitals that are not your own, your usual, and trying to coordinate care for all of this. I can't imagine there's any more time, right? So I think a lot of time people really feel like, "Well, there's no time for me." But what were the habits that you had that helped you get through this?
Klaus Grim: Yeah. I mean, there's always times for you, and it's not selfish, will say that being a healthcare professional, being in the role that I have, having a large scope of general medicine has been really foundational, number one. and then having, having delivered some of these news to some of my own patients in the past, then some of the resilience of just being a healthcare professional and able to absorb a lot of those things that the general public oftentimes can't, We have a large knowledge base, and we have a better understanding than most people do. So I think that perspective, number one, was foundational. But a lot of the things that I leaned on were the basics, and I think that is the most important thing. So communication, right? Talking to people. you're not alone in this. There's people who, want to hear and support you. And so I had my mother to talk to, I had friends to reach out to, I had colleagues that I could bounce things off of. number one, that was I think the most foundational, not bottling it in, saying, "I got this," by myself, and saying, "Here, this is what I can do, is just to chat with people." And even if it's as simple as, know, "I'm struggling here," "Can you talk about something else, something positive?" sometimes just shifting the topic, number one, especially when you're living in it constantly. I think another one is you always have moments of by yourself, Whether that's driving, right? Maybe you're driving into the hospital yourself, listening to a podcast episode, listening to some music, or just listening to some quiet sounds or nothing at all and just being, reflective. I think those are probably the biggest things. and still trying to take care of myself by exercising. I think it did definitely fall through the creaks you know, with everything that was going on. And as you mentioned, time is a huge thing, Still having to work. I was very lucky to be able to ask for swaps of shifts. lucky I have great leadership in my job, where I was able to get some time off, to be able to be at the bedside of the family member. All these things I think were foundational, is that I just didn't keep it in. I utilized the resources that I have, many healthcare professionals, even myself, I love to be a resource for the friends and colleagues and families that I have that reach out to me.
Lillian Liang Emlet: These are really great points. so many people like to hide. People like to hide everything inside. They try to tough it all out, and that is probably the worst thing that you can do. And really making sure that you get out there and reach out for connection near, far, video, in person, telephone. so connection is what I really am hearing you say. And then also just making the time for the things that you need to do, and then it's a balance between, like, the alone time and also being with other people time, and then also doing the normal healthy things like exercise to be able to do those things. and to prioritize it so that you can be present for the times where you do need to be present and thinking about other people. So I guess I'm curious, what, was it like to now being on the receiving end, of healthcare, not at your own institution where, you're going to a bigger subspecialty location and, what was that journey like for you and your, family?
Klaus Grim: that's where I, lucky to have the background that I do. And I think many of us don't really realize that as healthcare, as we know, is incredibly challenging. The system is different, is challenging in the way things operate is different from institution to institution. it's a little bit outside your comfort zone sometimes when you're not in the environment that you practice in. I think one thing I utilized was the connections that I had, a lot of the friends that I had worked in different institutions and different specialties bounced ideas off of. I think I was very fortunate to have that ability. And then, it really teaches you the importance of patient advocacy, To advocate because the policies that are in one institution oftentimes aren't in the other. And to really make it so that it's an environment for the person that you love that's comfortable, as best as possible, And it took a lot, to-- a lot of time and energy to advocate, but I felt honored that I was able to do that for somebody, that I cared for. and I couldn't even imagine how somebody who wasn't in that environment, in our current environment are able to do that. I think one thing that I learned from this process, which I knew from the start, but was foundational and I always had the back of my mind is even when, emotions are fluttering and you can sometimes get agitated or, you want things to go a certain way, is always bring kindness to the people you talk to. try your best, not to be super reactive or impulsive and just take a step back, ask powerful questions, and listen and gather information, I think was, I think the biggest thing. and just like I said, being kind to every person you come across. I think kindness oftentimes is undervalued in the work that we do. And when it's always there, it's oftentimes I find that, you can get more done, more accomplished
Lillian Liang Emlet: So give us an example of something that you had to advocate for and what that encounter looked like in terms of how you had to advocate for it and what exactly, do you think was the process by which you were successful?
Klaus Grim: So I think one, one of the biggest ones was, my partner's, parents, were together for over 40 years, and a pretty, significant diagnosis with a poor prognosis. And one institution that we had gone to, didn't allow family members to spend the night, and, the patient really wanted her husband there. And it was very challenging for the two of them, because they wanted to, we knew that it didn't have that much time, and those times should be church and, together if that's, if it's possible. and so one of the things that I really had to do is make, a bunch of phone calls, and it's not anybody's fault. Oftentimes these are policies set forth, and find ways to really make that possible. and so those many phone calls and kindness, It's so easy to just get so upset and say, "How could you do this? Why?" instead is, "What can I do to help support this?" and after numerous phone calls and, and advocacy, they were able to get her into a private room, which she originally was in, and the ability for her husband to be her support person, to be there by her side every night, which I think was incredibly transformative in her care and really, know, made her last, few weeks on Earth to the best, and gave some closure to family as well. and I'm very happy that I was able to do that, and help with that. I thank all the staff that obviously made that possible because, I think people often underestimate the power of connection, We talked about connection for us, in me, right? Reaching out to people, but also for the patient. Connection is so important
Lillian Liang Emlet: Yeah, I'm curious. I mean, the reality is a lot of the times, we have to go through hoops to be able to do that, and it can be very frustrating, and it can feel like you're not being heard. I'm curious if, through the process, there was a success- successful outcome, obviously. But, how did you even go about, doing that in a healthcare system that's not even yours? So you don't really know the people who- that you're talking with. I guess walk us through what that journey was like from your perspective, from emotional perspective, and then also from a strategy and process perspective so that people who are listening understand, like, what might be a successful way. Because, I mean, I think a lot of times many physicians have spoken out, about the poor treatment they've also received. we know that there are many social media influencers who have talked about, care that they have received as subpar, and that's not what you're talking about right now. You're talking about how do we, in a professional way, advocate for things in, i- in a way that will actually get the job done
Klaus Grim: Yeah. number one, it's, it's asking questions first off. Coming from a place of curiosity I think is the first thing everybody should do instead of getting, really frustrated and reactive, is taking a step back to understand. because a lot of times, it's the nurses that are there moment by moment bedside who have to, enact these policies that they didn't even create. So let's not get frustrated at them, I think, they were transformative and incredibly helpful is asking them, "What's the process?" know, it was hard for me because I wasn't always there. I was oftentimes getting information from a family member, and they were doing the best of what they could do, And so it was me making phone calls and speaking to nursing staff and asking them what their process is, how to allow for this, what can I do. and it, as I mentioned before, is knowing some people, in that institution who, understood a little bit about the process was incredibly helpful. and I would say I was probably bounced around a few times, which is completely understandable, and, was able to reach, one woman who, through the disability office who, was really accommodating and helpful, and had no idea that there was, service for some hospitals, and, was really able to help meet her accommodations, that she needed for her healing and her treatment. and through speaking to this person were they able to really, make some of these, simple changes like getting her that private room and allowing her partner to be there. I would say, like I said, it's not an easy process. It's just figuring out who's the right person to talk to, and approaching it with kindness. And I'll tell you most of the time everybody was very sympathetic and understanding and doing everything that they possibly could. and that was to me a very reassuring sign
Lillian Liang Emlet: Yeah. I mean, so, I'm sure people listening, they're like, "Well, I wish my parent had a, private room," and all these, things. And so the reality is, and then we're often on the receiving end, Whenever we're working in the hospital that we have all of these requests made from family members. And so I'm curious, what has changed after going through this experience that, that now informs your practice, being now on the, in the emergency department? Like when you hear about unreasonable requests and things like that
Klaus Grim: I mean, it's so understanding. I mean, a lot of these things are impossible, and that would've been totally understandable if a lot of these changes couldn't have been made. and I think what they did was, they knew where she was in terms of her prognosis and were able to make those accommodations for that reason. And, and it's taught me so much about the importance of patient advocacy, for even for myself in my own practice, which I always felt like I did very well, but found ways that I can even improve that. And I think sometimes we all cringe at a family member that is medical, right? because sometimes we think, they could, dictate too much of the care or whatever it may be. But I found power in it. I found, if you have a family member that is kind and curious and finding ways to help, they're huge. Like, my partner's, father was helping the nursing staff incredibly, helping her to the bathroom, helping feed her, Relieving some of the duties, And people want to support their family members oftentimes. I think one thing that I really wanted to touch on that I didn't touch on is my background in coaching that I think was huge in this, and I think, that's probably going to transform a little bit about how I practice currently, was my ability to step back and take a bird's-eye view and really feel and sense the emotions going on, the challenges that people are experiencing, and communicating things in very layman terms so that people could understand things. because it's so easy when we go to speak to a patient, and then their family about a certain diagnosis or condition, and we think that, they understand based off what we're saying, but they may not. And each family member oftentimes takes on different information. And oftentimes when it's such a critical diagnosis, some people just go blank, And they say, "Oh, yeah, I understood," but they didn't really, and they don't want to inconvenience you or... right? And so for me, it's been really having people reiterate what did I said or what they understand from a situation and also, taking care of the family members that are there as well and saying, "How are you doing?" it was extremely challenging for my, direct family that was going through this. And so constantly checking in, with new updates. "How are you doing in this process? what is it that I can do to answer your questions?" ' Cause questions are not just when you're at the bedside. Questions come up, right, as sit there and they start to process this information. And just being available to answer these questions, I think is huge. And saying when you don't know, you don't know is totally understandable. but just having a genuine, conversation
Lillian Liang Emlet: Yeah. so it's interesting you talk about reflecting how being a coach helped you, in your, support role. And it's interesting that, as you ex- described it, I can see how it's very similar to how we function as the systemic team coaches for a team, So as you as an outsider watching and supporting all of the players, and you watch things unfold between, when nurses come in, when physicians come in, when different specialists come in, how that news lands, trying to unpack what the perspectives are for all the different, your family obviously being part of the care team, and then just taking a step back and being a little more, objective to kind of watch and support how each of the different people are able to interact together more effectively. Whether that's the nurse, or whether that was her husband or whether that was, your partner. Like in general, it's a very systemic team coaching way of looking at the situation in general. and I think it's also kind of interesting about how so much of this is done, the patient advocacy work. And that reminds me of, a podcast that we did with, Dr. Angie Ingraham of True North, Patient Advocacy. her advocacy is, she's obviously a trauma surgeon physician researcher, and so her background, was that just like you and I, we understand sort of the gamut of care coming from an emergency and trauma surgical complete perspective. Having worked with every single specialty in the hospital, we can begin to understand, someone else's perspective, and it's that, like you said, pulling back to sort of figure out how are we going to do this all together. So that's really insightful.
Klaus Grim: Yeah, and I think one of the biggest things I tried to do throughout this process is not dictate care or tell anybody how things should go, so help them understand complex medical conditions and information. and then pulling back to really get all parties that are involved, including the patient, to understand themselves and make the best informed decision that was for themselves. And, it was challenging because oftentimes, you know what the best thing, or you think you know what the best thing is for somebody, but it should really come from the patient, number one, if they have that capacity to make that decision, then the healthcare proxy and the direct closest family. and it should be united if as, as best as possible. and oftentimes when information is delivered correctly and the understanding is correct-- is there, I find that, it comes back collectively
Lillian Liang Emlet: I mean, that, it's a process. I mean, the reality is, you're lucky that you have the ability to support people through that both cognitive, emotional, process to think through, especially at the end of life. obviously being in, critical care, we deal with these types of conversations often, and it's really hard to be on the family member side trying to weigh the pros and the cons and trying to begin to understand how might it look if time is limited. It's kind of unimaginable. and I can see where your coaching analogy is, because I do often, tell our clinicians that we're actually there to, to coach the family through that process. It's not like they've ever been through this. I mean, some families have. but many families have not. And so, having that coach approach, just like our last, podcast with, Helene Thierault, where she talked about the coach approach being part of the practice skills of all clinicians, helps us not feel burnt out, not feel like we're having these conflict head-to-head conversations. I'm curious, were there conversations that you felt that you had to bring out your coaching skills? and that if you didn't have those skills, that things could have gone differently, if this had happened, five years ago before you had your coaching experience?
Klaus Grim: That's a great question. I think three coaching skills were incredibly useful. One is acknowledging and validating. Acknowledging the emotions and the feelings and of those feelings and emotions that the, everybody was dealing with, I think was huge. Because, sometimes it was anger, sometimes it was frustration, sometimes it was, sadness. Sometimes, whatever it was, it, it was right for them at that moment. and, being able to acknowledge and validate it says, "Oh, I'm, I feel heard." And that's what they wanted at the moment. And then I think the other one was open-ended questions. is not, instead of asking direct questions, instead saying, "What are you understanding from this situation?" "What is it," know, "What questions do you have?" What would support you in this moment, in everything that's going, is happening right now? and even, and then sometimes silence, and that's the hardest part about me is silence. for my partner, you know, only child, this is incredibly challenging, And sometimes I just had to step back and just be there, and just my presence, and not say a word. because it's so easy to break the silence and say, I don't know, the subject to something positive. And, it taught me about reading the room little bit and, and just knowing that silence is okay, and oftentimes that's part of healing as well
Lillian Liang Emlet: Thanks so much for sharing those three communication tips, which actually, ironically enough, is very similar to the, main teaching points that we often teach at the VitalTalk, communication skills for delivering serious news with empathy. so acknowledging and validating is part of our NURSE mnemonic, our framework for how we communicate empathy, in the moment to what the person is feeling. and then also I love the explore and asking open-ended questions that were, that are powerful and expansive, and asking the right questions really can matter. Not just yes/no questions, but ones that maybe can explore what might it look like. And to continue to ask questions because... And to normalize what questions do you have, because it's normal to have questions in general. I often think curiosity is the one skill that for some reason as we become an adult, we think we shouldn't be asking questions, and yet that is the best part, to be able to continue to figure out, like, what to do next, and brainstorm ideas, and think together like like you're describing. I'm curious, we've covered quite a bit in terms of how our prior work as coaches, educators, clinicians interweave into our own personal experiences. What else would you like to share that I haven't asked you about this experience with our audience?
Klaus Grim: Thank you. You covered a great depth of it, and thank you for allowing me to, share this story. And I think, it probably will hit home for some people. and it's still pretty, fresh, news for us in, the situation. and every day still has its different challenges, And the most important thing I hoped to talk about today was that power of taking care of yourself in this process that, practicing, wellness and being well is incredibly important. and if we build the skills while, things are going well day-to-day we are more likely to be able to practice that self-care when crisis hits, when don't feel like, you may think it's selfish. You may think it's, it's impossible. and, it's like a skill that you have to practice. taking care of yourself, it's not as simple as just a massage or, getting a pedicure, it's really actually embodying and feeling that reset, and feeling refreshed, in the midst of a lot of the chaos of every day, because there's challenges that happen every single day. so I thank you for allowing this space, and I think, patients are lucky to have us as healthcare professionals and constantly tweaking and finding ways just to improve overall patient experience, I think is huge for patients and their families. And it's taught me a lot about, if I ever have to be in this situation again, what were the key learnings that I had, And what can I do next time, that may, be better? we're constantly learning and growing and, as healthcare professionals, right, in our knowledge in medicine, but as well as human beings. And, this whole experience taught me so much, and I hope, got some information from this or, or felt reassured about some of the things that they've experienced and done themselves or the way that they practice medicine. And I'd love to hear about it in the comments. what resonated for you, when you heard my story? and what's coming up for you? I'd love to hear it
Lillian Liang Emlet: Yeah, so thanks so much, Klaus, for being willing to share your story here on the podcast. I mean, I think the reality, I think for all, for both of us, we want you to know out there, YouTube and podcast land on Apple and Spotify, we're real people. Things, real things happen to us, real crises, right? Health and mental emergencies, with our families, with our others. and yet we still try to show up the best way that we can. And there are lessons that we like to be able to share with you as we go through that, and I appreciate the fact that you, are willing to share your story of self-compassion and why compassion for yourself and for the healthcare team really can help in that advocacy process as we are able to support our family members through, this crazy place called life, and healthcare. I think we all can agree that the healthcare place is challenging. it's, not an easy place, and there's a way to get through it gracefully. So I'm really grateful that you shared your story with us here on the podcast
Klaus Grim: Yeah. And one thing before we close is, we as healthcare professionals are not immune to the everyday illnesses that our patients face. So that importance of taking care of ourselves every day is so huge. and taking care of ourselves and taking care of others is, so important. So, you again and, I hope everybody feels inspired to say, "I'm going to do one thing to find ways to improve my self-care," and we'd love to hear it
Lillian Liang Emlet: There you go. So please feel free to like, share, subscribe, share with a colleague, especially a colleague who's going through something right now. Please give them this message, from us to hopefully ground them and realize they have much more than they realize inside them to be able to get through this. and please tell us what else you'd like to hear from us. So email us at podcast@transforminghealthcarecoaching.com or hello@transforminghealthcarecoaching.com if you'd like to bring us for either group or individual coaching programs for your organization for your support. Thanks everyone for listening.
Klaus Grim: Take care everybody
References & Mentions
Your Host
Dr. Lillian Liang Emlet
Physician · Executive Coach · Founder, Transforming Healthcare Coaching®
Lillian is a practicing physician, certified executive coach, and the voice behind the Transforming Healthcare Coaching® podcast. She works with clinicians, clinical leaders, and healthcare executives leading through role transitions, seasons at capacity, and culture change — helping them lead with clarity, intention, and sustainability.
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