Non-Clinical Careers for Physicians:
Facts, Not Assumptions

Transforming Healthcare Coaching Podcast — Episode 122: Non-Clinical Careers for Physicians. Host Lillian Liang Emlet, MD MS CHSE CPC ELI-MP in conversation with Mandy Armitage, MD and Morgan Leafe, MD MHA. Published August 17, 2026.

Lillian Liang Emlet: How do you advise people that way?

Mandy Armitage: I'm not qualified for anything else. What in the world can I do? What is gonna be the next career for me? I was waiting for it to get better, and it just never did. I was having doubts all along, but I just did not listen to myself.

Morgan Leafe: There's nobody who's going to knight you. You are now a medical

Mandy Armitage: Writer.

Morgan Leafe: Make sure that you're approaching it with facts and not assumptions

Lillian Liang Emlet: So you did everything right, the training, the boards, all those years of practice, and somewhere along the way, a quiet question started following you into every single clinical shift. Is this really it? Clinicians never really say it out loud, because the moment you do, you feel like you're admitting like the whole thing about your career may have been a mistake, and that maybe there's no door out anyways, that you're stuck in this clinical practice. Our two guests today left clinical medicine, one from pediatrics and one from sports medicine. And instead of disappearing quietly, they built a network so that no one else has to figure out this exit alone. I just want to say, we all exit for different reasons. And for so many of us, we do a side gig and something else and get to live out our passion. So this is not about leaving something completely. Sometimes for many of us, it's a transition. So there's something to be learned here today. And so I'm really excited for our guests today on the Transforming Healthcare Coaching Podcast, our two physicians, Dr. Morgan Leafe and Dr. Mandy Armitage. Welcome to the Transforming Healthcare Coaching Podcast.

Morgan Leafe: Thank you for having us

Mandy Armitage: Happy to be here

Lillian Liang Emlet: And so Dr. Leafe and Dr. Armitage, you are both physician medical writers who left clinical practice and joined forces to build the Nonclinical Physicians Network, which is a community and resource hub for physicians exploring nonclinical career transitions. And you are co-founders, co-executive directors, and you are hosting your first in-person non-clinical career conference in Philadelphia on October 17th and 18th, 2026. I just want to introduce you a little bit to our audience. Dr. Leafe is a double board-certified in pediatrics and clinical informatics, and has more than a decade of experience caring for children. She also has a master's in healthcare administration and informatics, and now she runs a full-time writing and consulting practice. And Mandy, Dr. Armitage, is a career physician who was trained in physical medicine rehab and sports medicine, and after leaving clinical practice, she transitioned to medical writing, editing, medical communications, CME, patient engagement. And you've held strategic and leadership roles through, medical directorship for companies, that provide, healthcare information for the greater public. And, she has also helped physicians pursue nonclinical career options, specifically in medical writing. And I have to admit, some ways feeling like I'm doing this for myself because I, too, aspire to be a writer someday to the degree that both of you are. And so we're excited, to be able to dive in and talk a bit about, what that process looks like. and so I guess to start us off, could you guys take me back to the version of, way back in the day before you told anyone about this, before you went out there and, created a conference and a network and a community? What was the moment that made you start to wonder maybe this, practicing clinically isn't what I'm going to be doing for the rest of my life, like way back when?

Morgan Leafe: I'll let Mandy take that one first because she made the transition a few years before I did

Mandy Armitage: Honestly, I sort of had a sneaking suspicion all throughout. I mean, it started early, like even in med school. And, I would entertain the idea of, what else could I do? And then, you know, just sort of leave it behind for a bit and, and keep going. I think one of the reasons that I never really pursued it early on was because I would listen to everyone else who said, "Oh, oh, it gets better," right? In med school, like, "This part is kind of boring. It's really hard. Just keep going. It gets better." In residency, "Oh, it just gets better if you're in fellowship or, you know, when you're an attending." So I was waiting for it to get better, and it just never did. So for me, it's not the same for everybody, but for me, I was having doubts sort of all along, but I just did not listen to myself, basically

Lillian Liang Emlet: Great. Thank you for sharing. And Morgan, what about for you?

Morgan Leafe: Similarly, I, not doubt it in medical school 'cause I was having a lot of fun in medical school. And I really actually... I mean, maybe this was telling that I would end up in medical writing. I really enjoyed every rotation in medical school. Even though I went to medical school to be a pediatrician, I knew I was gonna be a pediatrician, but loved geriatric psychiatry. I loved surgery. So I found myself really enjoying the learning on every rotation. But when I got to residency, and the reality hit, I think of practicing this day in, day out for the rest of my life, that's when I started to say, what else can I do?" And was like, I say, I remember being on call in the delivery room. And so you're just like sitting around between deliveries and just googling like, "What other jobs can a doctor do?" and so kind of up from there, my path ended up being winding because I eventually, went back to school to get a master's in healthcare administration with an informatics concentration. I thought informatics was going to be my non-clinical career. And then when that didn't work out, I learned about medical writing, and that's where I initially ended up. And, I loved a lot of things about being a pediatrician, I wouldn't trade and be a different kind of, I might be a dermatologist, actually. I think I would have liked doing procedures. But, my patients were amazing. And I specialize in working with kids with special needs, and I love that. So it was more of a, just a realization that I wasn't a type of person who was meant to do the same thing for the rest of my life.

Lillian Liang Emlet: That's so well put. Because I think the reality is so much of our training and how long we practice and the training process and then the career advancement process was very perceived to be very linear. And now the talks I give for even at national conferences is talking about diversification and really thinking differently about how we approach life. It's funny those things, like I always wish I, I had known this 20 years ago, that there were many more options than what we were told with a very linear, straight diagonal at a rate of growth of exact, certain percent per year, in terms of different, opportunities or leadership. And then even then leadership had to look a certain way for that to be correct. So much of medicine tells us how we are supposed to be, what identity we have to fit into. And so what does it actually cost when you think about your whole person, your identity, your relationships, your self-image, as you transition through that process. it may have, for both of you, for all of us, right, to hear that voice, to begin to honor it a little bit. We all take different meandering paths, linear paths, circuitous paths to get there. What did it feel like in terms of that side of us, in terms of understanding our identity and self-image in that process?

Mandy Armitage: That's a good question, and I think that's something a lot of people struggle with because, a lot of physicians, I think being a doctor becomes part of our identity, And it's hard to separate the two. Of course, Morgan's gonna answer in, in her own way. But for me, it took a long time to, sort of separate those, What did it mean that... I mean, even though I'm not practicing anymore, am I still a doctor? Like, can I actually say that? Especially when, you know, for someone like me, I didn't have a lot of family members or friends who were in medicine and, you know, they would call me Dr. Mandy. So they're kind of like, "Ooh, can I even still call you Dr. Mandy?" And it's like, well, you know, I haven't given up on the degree. I haven't given up on medicine entirely. It's just a different way of using it, right? But it, does sometimes take, people a long time to, to grapple with that. Like, just because you're stepping away or you're doing medicine in a different way, that doesn't mean you are someone different, if that makes sense. so I... Like, I think I can be a physician, and I can be a writer at the same time, even though it may look different

Morgan Leafe: Better still call me doctor. I went into a lot of debt for that degree, yeah, I agree with everything you're saying, Mandy. And, it's interesting just anecdotally, I will say that we all struggle with this for sure, pretty much universally. But I actually think struggle with it a little bit less than men in my experience because I think that women tend to view themselves as having more identities, For better or worse, actually worse, we end up being the caretakers, So you also have an identity perhaps as a mother, perhaps as somebody who's caring for your parents, and as many other things and we tend to have more closely knit friend groups and all of those things. And so that transition is just a maybe, not always, I'm not saying it's easy, but the idea of trying on a different identity, might be a little bit more smooth. And I see men sometimes struggle with this a lot because they view their entire identity as being a physician, I think that, that is one thing I struggle with that a lot. Not a lot, but somewhat. I come from a lower middle class background. I-- definitely nobody I grew up with is a physician. So it was a very big deal that I was able to accomplish that. And up, that career, I think is just, you have to prepare yourself that you're gonna have to explain that to people better and for worse.

Mandy Armitage: Mm-hmm.

Morgan Leafe: You're gonna have to explain what your new career is constantly. I think for me, the difficulty with identity was definitely, balanced finding a new identity that I loved so much more. So when you're in that space where you're giving it up for something hypothetical, it feels very scary. But once you find what that new identity is and you're like, "Oh, this is great, I can do this. Lots of other people are doing this," then it becomes easier

Lillian Liang Emlet: Yeah, absolutely. I think what's interesting, I think generationally too now, like we come from a generation where we thought we had to do exactly all the right steps in the order, and I think now even college kids now have more than one opportunity. And so they've already practiced diversification in more than one thing, and it's totally normal and okay to have really advanced hobbies, Or advanced other side gigs, or advanced other passions so that you are more than just the one identity. So I think it really is about a choice and preference. And, I would say 50% of the world likes to have a bunch, and 50% don't, and that's okay. If you only want to have one, it's perfectly great that you have just the identity of being an amazing physician in whatever group, however you choose to practice, and both are valid ways of living. so medical writing isn't the next obvious step for a lot of people. And so how did each of you realize your clinical training was an asset somewhere else and not something that you were, you know, trying to do differently? how did you get into medical writing?

Morgan Leafe: So Mandy transitioned into medical writing a few, like seven-ish, eight years before I did. And I actually was still practicing clinically, realizing that informatics wasn't going to work out at my current institution. And, I always had side gigs 'cause a pediatrician and I couldn't pay back my student loans if I didn't. So I had a side gig working as a pediatric medical editor for a Borderview company, and I really loved that. I loved managing the team of writers. I loved, working on the content. I loved, just learning new things. And, I then started working with career coach Heather Fork a little bit, and she and I talked about medical writing, and then I attended-- There used to be an in-person, non-clinical career conference called SEAK, which, does not exist in person anymore, and that's where I met Mandy. She gave a talk there about medical writing, and I got some coaching from her. And, just learned about the field that way through talking to other people and networking and realizing, "Oh, this thing I'm already doing is medical writing," and I didn't even know it was called that.

Mandy Armitage: And for me, when I was looking for alternative careers, I was in practice and I was, you know, realizing that this was not something that was sustainable for me. So I was like, "Okay, what else can I do?" So I worked with a career coach, also happened to be Heather. and I think just through some exercises with her, it sounds, a bit silly to say that, like, I didn't recognize how much I loved writing without her actually pointing it out to me, but, you know, here I am, I'm in sports practice. I'm covering football games on Fridays, going to the training room on Saturdays, and then I'm watching NFL on Sundays, like, writing about concussions and, you know, ACL tears and all, like, all these things. And she was like, " Okay, you know, have you been doing that for a long time?" And then, like, looking back, like, I led our residency group in this, sort of like rehab newsletter that went out to a bunch of residents. When I was in my fellowship, my favorite day of the week was my half day that I got to research and, I, wrote a chapter in Clinics of Sports Medicine. Like, that was like my favorite day of the week. And she was like, you know, let's connect the dots here." And again, like, I feel sort of silly that it had to be pointed out to me, but it, obviously I was like, " Oh, yeah. Okay, let's do this." And of course, you know, this was like 2012, I guess, and I didn't know medical writing was a thing. I didn't know this was a career path. It just kind of blew my mind. I was like, "Okay, this makes sense. Let's give this a try."

Lillian Liang Emlet: When in my coaching journey to become a coach, part of it was also even with my coach as she worked with me trying to figure out like, well, where is the thread? What is the story? And then now obviously with our clients, as we're, we often do coach these career transitions, it is weird to realize your strengths are there through all the opportunities and experiences, and it's only through the action of trying that we can see it and feel it, and then as we gain more experience, we can now point to it and say, "Oh, this is natural. This is what I get excited by. This is where my brain begins to, think more, in a growth pattern and want to move towards," rather than, "Yeah, okay, I've done that. That was nice, but I'm not excited by it anymore." And until we can look back and at our experiences and think about it, it's often hard to see, and yet we know everything actually already inside of ourselves. So that makes a lot of sense what

Mandy Armitage: Yeah. But, but that exercise of just slowing down and taking stock, right? Of what am I good at? What do I like to do? What am, what am I doing with my free time even? ' Cause I think a lot of people, and Morgan and I see this a lot, and you probably do too, a lot of people just think, "Okay, I don't want to do this anymore, so like what can I jump to next? And I want to get there now, today, or maybe even yesterday," right? We want to change so quickly, but it, makes so much more sense to take a thoughtful approach to it so you can connect those dots on your own

Lillian Liang Emlet: And so if, Mandy, if you think about, you wrote the transition guide, and Morgan, you sort of counsel people through it. If you think of it that way, the, what belief do the two of you often see that you have to help someone unlearn before they can move forward into thinking about a non-clinical career transition?

Mandy Armitage: I think the biggest thing is that physicians think that they don't have any transferable skills, and I was there, too. I remember thinking, I'm not qualified for anything else. Like, what in the world can I do? Like, what is gonna be the next career for me if I have training in nothing else? I don't want to start from scratch. I don't want to go back to undergrad or, you know, do another graduate degree." So I see that all the time because, like you mentioned, our training is very specific. It's very linear, and the thought of doing something outside of that, not only is it scary, I feel like we lose confidence in any other areas, we don't recognize our transferable skills, so I think that's probably one of the biggest obstacles I see. Morgan, what would you say?

Morgan Leafe: Yeah. And I would say related to that, what I see specifically with the medical writing people that I coach is, folks don't understand that there's nobody who's going to knight you. You are now a medical

Mandy Armitage: Writer

Morgan Leafe: Because everything we've done to date has been like, "Here is your degree. Now you're a doctor. Here's your residency graduation. Now you can practice on your own." There's very distinct steps to get where you are when you're an attending physician. But you can just call yourself a medical writer tomorrow. I would recommend taking courses learning how to actually do the job, but that's actually all that's involved, is making sure you have the skills to write the specific type of material that you want to write. And so people struggle with "Well, can I call myself a medical writer if nobody's hired me yet?" Or whatever it is. They're looking for some external validation for what it is that they want to do. And that's not necessary in, the rest of the world outside of medicine basically

Lillian Liang Emlet: Love that. That's so, so on point. The thinking you don't have any transferable skills when there are so many transferable skills in our day-to-day jobs in terms of ability to navigate dealing with people, dealing with conflict, administration, managing multiple tasks. And, gosh darn it, we are pretty smart enough to get through all of that education. So if you can learn how to do the things that we did for healthcare and providing care, I'm sure we can learn how to fill in the blank, right? And then I know, also think about the fact that I remember when I took my first online writing class in the middle of the pandemic, being with other writers, and they all had the same insecurities I did. And I was like, "Oh." And these are what I call real writers. I'm just like a baby who, it's just like I'm coming to my very first online class ever, I'm like, "Okay, I am a writer now." And I started, obviously with my Substack, LinkedIn newsletters, and now doing things for myself and for the company. But, I still remember that very first class. I'm like, "Wait, these people have the same insecurities I do, and I'm not even published." And so all, it's all in our heads I feel like sometimes Yeah. So you each could have built your own consulting advisory and coaching practice on your own, but you didn't. you, built a network together. You've banded together. And so what made you decide to start the Nonclinical Physicians, Community and Conference to take that on together?

Morgan Leafe: Well, I'll say neither of us has the personality to be a coach. We are not hand holders. We're not the people who are gonna do the personality testing and the let's help, you figure out where to go. Mandy and I are, hopefully I'm speaking accurately for both of us, Mandy, we really like to focus on the practical steps to get there. And so we really wanted to offer that resource to people. And I could tell you for one, I never could have done this on my own. It's a huge undertaking. And we both had a passion for this. So we both used to speak at that in-person career conference at SEAK. So each other there every year. And, after I met her that first time when I was an attendee, and when that ended, we talked to each other and said, "Wow, that's really a shame that this isn't gonna be around anymore," because, it's such a valuable opportunity. You just heard me say, that's what helped jumpstart my career. And, we both said, " let's do this." And, happen to be very entrepreneurial. I think that's what I've learned about myself is like I'm gonna be somebody who always has ideas and is interested in doing something new and, I sucked Mandy in with me. Is that accurate, Mandy?

Mandy Armitage: Yeah. She twisted my arm. No, I'm just joking. No, I'm just joking. Honestly, though, I can't imagine... Number one, I can't imagine doing this with anyone else, and also I can't imagine doing it, alone. Like, it really is true what they say, that two minds are better than one. Individually, I feel like we both have good ideas, and we, could certainly make things happen. But I've always liked working on a team, and that's what I liked in, like, startups and that kind of thing. Like, writing is great, but I also need a bit of collaboration thrown in there, too. I think it's way more fun, and I just, I love working with Morgan

Morgan Leafe: I argue with you, Mandy, and I was gonna say, and we're both perimenopausal and we have brain fog. So a lot of times it's really just one brain between the two of us.

Mandy Armitage: It's a bad day when we both have brain fog together.

Lillian Liang Emlet: That's awesome. That's awesome. No, I totally agree. I mean, the same thing here at Transforming Healthcare Coaching. I mean, the reason we have all of our diverse coaches is by intent, and also it is so much better to have diversity, of perspectives and recognize that you get more support and more information by banding together to do that. And you know, I, also appreciate, what you're talking about, Morgan. In the coaching side of things, as we really unpack the true why underneath everything, and for many of us, we've never explored it. I still remember when my own coach in the pandemic, when she coached me to try to figure things out, obviously it's before I decided to undergo going back to coaching school and creating the company. Like you're 45 years old and you don't even know who you are. And you're just like, "How is this even possible?" Like, how was I really running for 15 years in academic medicine and never sat down once to think about things? Apparently, I was only clearly following somebody else's playbook and not necessarily understanding what else there is underneath everything. So I agree with you. The complementary nature of needing information, plus also having a guide on the side to help you through your own story and your own exploration of figuring yourself out is really important

Morgan Leafe: 100%, And I definitely recommend that's where people start. When they say, "I don't know where to start," the place to start is coaching. If you're not sure what direction to go in, start with coaching and somebody who can help you through that and really hold your hand, and people, I think underestimate that and instead think, "I'm gonna start with just picking a career and going for it."

Mandy Armitage: More knowledge. I still love, I think a lot of times people are like, "Oh, I'll go get another degree." Because, 'cause we just keep acquiring degrees because we're just good at studying, I suppose.

Lillian Liang Emlet: So if someone's listening who feels the pull, they can be like, "Okay, I can feel it and I know it, and I need to do something," but what's the first concrete move aside from coaching? So one, obviously you can find us, schedule with me and one of our coaches, usually Vicki loves to do career coaching and transition coaching. But what's the first concrete step after coaching that they can take?

Mandy Armitage: I would say start with research. Once you've, once you've done the coaching, if you're going to do that, then you have a better idea of, your own personal values, and hopefully you have an idea of what you're looking for in terms of a workplace environment. You know, maybe it's freelance, it's contract, maybe you want to lead a team, whatever it is. And then do some research on the options that are out there. Now, there are plenty of resources, There are books, there are podcasts, there are so many resources. But I would say take the time to find out what's out there, see what resonates with you, and then you can do further research by speaking with other people in those fields, just so you can get a better feel for, you know, if that might be a viable option.

Morgan Leafe: I couldn't agree more. And I'll say one of the biggest misconceptions or missteps that we see is that somebody says, "I want a non-clinical career," and they think the first step is to turn their CV into a resume and make a LinkedIn profile first. And I'm a resume writer and a LinkedIn profile writer. That's one of my other businesses. And thing that people most need to know is that you need to know what type of job you want before you craft those things. Some generic resume that just highlights your transferable skills is not gonna get you very far in a specific industry. You have to use the language of that industry, especially these days as AI is scanning all the resumes. So you really don't want to jump to the resume and LinkedIn profile stage until you have done the research and figured out exactly which career is the direction you want to go in

Lillian Liang Emlet: That's something I didn't really realize, that all these AI scanning of the resumes and CVs, that's even more frightening. So thank you for bringing that up. So I'm wondering, what should someone do about the fear they have about money, pension, sunk costs? There's a lot of anchors that keep people in place with their current employer. Negotiating a new kind of split or a new job transition to a place so that'd be more friendly towards doing something non-clinical. But a lot of it, I think for a lot of people, is the pension and the money. I'm curious, like how do you advise people that way?

Morgan Leafe: Well, I think the first step is to do an actual pen and paper analysis to find out if that concern is accurate because that's an assumption that most people make. A, that their new career will pay less than their current career, which is definitely, always. Trust me, there's no non-clinical career that pays less than being a pediatrician. you will make more money in any non-clinical career than you as a pediatrician. You're a plastic surgeon, maybe not. But also, there's pharma jobs that pay a lot of money. So really sit down and look at salaries. Really sit down and assess your own finances. It's really fantastic when people are able to take some time. I wish I had done this. I had the same assumption where I was like, "Ah, I'm the breadwinner in my family. I can't possibly not work. I need to have something always lined up." I've never taken time off between jobs in my entire life. And of course, now I wish I had, and I realize that was a false assumption that I have. look at your savings. If you have a spouse or a partner, talk to them and really look at how much money you have, if there's budgeting you can do to take some time off, especially if you're burned out. I think that's really important. You need to, reset your brain before you can jump into something new. It's possible. And then really take a look at job listings for non-clinical careers and understand what the salaries are in the fields that you're interested in. So just you have that concern, it's a valid concern. Don't get me wrong, but also make sure that you're approaching it with facts and not assumptions

Mandy Armitage: Yeah, that's a good point. And I think honestly, like, this is, such an individual decision too, Some people need to maintain a certain level of income to provide for, you know, whether it's private school or you're caring for aging patients-- or parents, sorry, excuse me, whatever the case may be. But also, we've heard from enough people that say, "You know what? I made the decision to cut back, because, you know, being around for my kids' activities is more important to me now than this, you know, high salary that I may not necessarily need." So that's, I mean, that's a balance that everybody needs to strike, and it's not gonna look the same for everyone.

Morgan Leafe: Yeah. Assess your priorities. Do you live in a $4 million house and you think you need your salary to afford the mortgage on your $4 million house? Fine. I- is it worth your happiness? You

Mandy Armitage: Mm-hmm. Exactly

Morgan Leafe: In a non-clinical career, could you move into a $2 million house, you know?

Lillian Liang Emlet: Right. And it's really interesting too, I think the other interesting thing is the fact that we don't necessarily really see the arcs what happens. 'cause even just talking to colleagues, at national organizations or professors or people who have retired from their professorship or their chair positions, you realize our careers are gonna keep on going, and there's gonna be, a need for a non-clinical career, period, end of story, full stop. Because we're more than just our clinical expertise only working a clinical shift like we were when we fir- in the first two or three years after we graduated. And so I think not just getting knowledge and information, and not just being aware of what the life cycle and diversity is out there for people who are, with- partnered, who are not, who have elders, who have large families, small families. Some people have s- chosen to unschool and travel the world while working telemedicine. There are so many career opportunities out there as a physicians. It does become a little overwhelming if you do too much research, and so that's why the coaching and the research have to go together to the knowing your why along with, what's out there. But, the really, the world is your oyster, and so as, finding more joy and fulfillment makes you appreciate the other aspect better. 'Cause I do think, for me even starting this podcast and the coaching business, I appreciate so much more my night shifts in the ICU where all I have to do is just take care of emergencies. In some ways, life is really simple when you're doing those basic fundamental things that you had always been doing, because there's other joys in other parts of your life too And so I guess that transitions us to I'm really excited about this non-clinical career conference you have in October in Philadelphia. And so paint the picture. So who is the right type of person who should come to this conference, and what should people expect when they come to the conference in terms of what kinds of talks or what will you cover? Tell us about this.

Mandy Armitage: Morgan and I were very thoughtful when we came up with the agenda for this conference. So to, The gist of it is this: the first day we are exploring various non-clinical careers, some of the more popular ones like, pharma, life sciences, medical writing. I'll be giving the talk on medical writing. We've got somebody to talk to us about coaching, but she also has experience in utilization management. We're gonna cover informatics. A couple of the people that are speaking are also entrepreneurs, so you know, we're kind of covering, a lot of various scenarios. And then that is followed up by day two, which is a bit more logistical in nature. So we're gonna talk about how to put your resume, your LinkedIn profile together, how to be sure you are financially ready for a transition like this, a-and that kind of thing. So it's a broad overview. We're trying to cover a lot, but it's basically for any physician, of any age, any specialty even, any career phase who wants to explore what a non-clinical career will look like.

Morgan Leafe: So we wanted to make this a way that people could come for the weekend and walk away with everything they needed to get started. So, not just the types of careers, which is very important, learning about the different types of careers, and hearing from physicians in those careers and the path they took, and especially people who have had m- multiple non-clinical careers. I want people to understand sort of the path that you can get on when you get off the beaten path of clinical medicine just see. Keeping in mind, nobody takes the same path to a non-clinical career. You're not gonna come and be like, "I want to be an informatician," and you're gonna write down everything that Adam Glasofer did to go into informatics and health tech, and you're gonna do exactly what he did. It's not gonna work for you. Everybody has to take their own path, but this can give you ideas about how to do that and what's out there. And then the second day, we'll give you the practical tools that you need to do it. How do you make a resume? How do you work with a recruiter? What are your transferable skills? Stuff like that. We also have a headshot booth, which I'm really excited about, and some really awesome, vendors. We're very purposeful with the vendors that we're picking to be people who, like you, Lillian, offer real value to our attendees. There's also a cocktail, networking reception. My experience when I attended SEAK in 2019 was The biggest impression I walked away with was how validating it was to be in a room full of people who are also interested in non-clinical career, because I didn't have anybody like that personally in my life. And so any time I would speak to a friend about it, I would have to explain myself and why I felt that way. And so then you walk into this room, you meet other people, and by the way, of jobs, you know this, Lillian, outside of medicine are obtained through networking. So making those connections, whether it's somebody who you end up just keeping in touch with to be accountability partners, or maybe they end up getting a pharma job, you're interested in pharma too, and they help you get in the door. Whatever it is, any way you can network and meet other like-minded people, I think is super valuable. So that's a big focus of the weekend as well.

Mandy Armitage: At the very least, it's an exercise in putting into words what you're feeling and what you're exploring and what you're moving towards

Morgan Leafe: Yeah, and we also want, it to be something that feels welcoming. Thinks of burnout as the number one reason why people are looking for non-clinical careers, and that's true. It is. So a lot of folks will experience burnout, but we also have, attendees who are nearing retirement, who are in their 60s, want to retire from clinical medicine but still do something else. We also have people who have experienced a disability and can no longer practice even though they want to. We have, like Mandy said, early career folks, mid-career folks. So there's not a stereotype as far as the people who are coming, and as far as people who are registered so far, I think we represent nearly every specialty in medicine. We have pediatricians, family medicine, psychiatry, surgeons, you name it. So this is really available no matter what specialty you're coming from. There's something out there for you if this is what you want

Lillian Liang Emlet: It's so exciting. So Morgan and Mandy, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. And what you're really giving all of our listeners today is permission that it's okay to, one, invest in yourself, out what you want, and also know that you have so many transferable skills that you can have a very abundant life as a physician, and it can include diversifying what opportunities you might have. You might fall in love with your next new job, and y- you, you gotta get out there, network, figure it out for yourself, and life craft, as I would like to say. And so for everyone who's listening this far, where can they find you? How can they get more information?

Morgan Leafe: Our website is www.nonclinicalphysicians, plural, network.com. So you can find us on there, you can reach out to us, you can get more information about the conference on there

Lillian Liang Emlet: So we'll have this all in the show notes below, the Non-Clinical Physicians Network, the Non-Clinical Career Conference October 17th and 18th, 2026 in Philadelphia, PA, which is an amazing city, especially if you are a foodie like myself. And, we'll also put the links for Dr. Morgan Leafe and Dr. Mandy Armitage's, website. And Mandy, you also have a book

Mandy Armitage: I do. Yes. This was my COVID project. I spoke to so many physicians who had questions about how to get into medical writing, and so I just wrote a book about it, as one does. It's called, "From Clinical Practice to Medical Writing: A Career Transition Guide".

Lillian Liang Emlet: And we'll put a link to the book on where you can find that in the show notes below. And so if this episode hopefully opened your eyes to the opportunities out there, please share this with another colleague who needs it, and come check us out at the conference in Philadelphia, and tell us else you want to listen to. Email us at podcast@transforminghealthcarecoaching.com. Until next time, thanks everyone for listening.