How Nurses Move Into Non-Traditional Careers
Reframe your value, find your direction, and stand out

Transforming Healthcare Coaching Podcast — Episode 72: How Nurses Move Into Non-Traditional Careers. Nurse career strategist Sara Fung, RN, in conversation with Dr. Lillian Liang Emlet.

Lillian Liang Emlet: Hi everyone. This week we're gonna talk all about careers, transitions, resumes, and so I'm super excited to have with us today Sara Fung, who is a nurse and a career coach for nurses and other people in healthcare. So I'll let her introduce herself.

Sara Fung: Hi everyone. Thanks for having me on the podcast. So, as you mentioned, my name is Sara Fung. I am an RN and I've been a nurse for almost 18 years and I've worked in a lot of different roles. So, at the bedside I was in maternal child health, so I did a lot of time there. I have worked as an educator. I've worked in non-traditional roles such as clinical research. I have worked in hospital leadership, I've done a lot of different things, and most recently I have transitioned into entrepreneurship, so I help other nurses and healthcare professionals with job seeking and careers and building their businesses because I think this is something as healthcare professionals we are uniquely suited for.

[00:01:00] And so I love being on episodes like this and just sharing the things that I've learned so that you don't have to make the same mistakes I did, and so that you can take some nuggets of wisdom from what I've done.

Lillian Liang Emlet: It's super awesome, so I'm super excited to get into it. You've helped countless number of nurses and healthcare professionals pivot into new non-traditional roles, and so how do you help coach healthcare professionals to reframe their identity as leaders, especially in that tug of war emotionally we have, if we step away from the bedside, because I know that's a huge one for most people that I talk to, I can't imagine leaving the bedside.

Sara Fung: Yeah, I think there's a lot of hierarchy in healthcare. So in my previous role, right, there was a hierarchy in terms of bedside nurses versus managers versus other healthcare leaders. And then even at the bedside, there's like sub hierarchies. You know, how long have you been a nurse? How many years have you been in nursing? What have you done in your career? So I feel like it's going from an environment which is very regimented [00:02:00] to something that's a little bit broader. So to think that maybe you could move into leadership or a non-traditional role, even though you have quote unquote not enough experience, is something that is new to a lot of people where in my industry seniority is very much rewarded. So every year you get a certain pay increase, and really that is the determining factor for whether you can move into a lot of roles. Well, when you move into non-traditional spaces, a lot of that doesn't apply anymore. It's really about the skills that you can deliver and what you've proven over time and it doesn't necessarily matter about your years, although that is still important. It's not the main factor. And I think people have a hard time getting their heads around that, so they're not sure how to articulate their value. And a lot of times people think, well, I'm just a nurse, but you are actually so much more than that, and it's hard to see that sometimes when you're in the thick of it. So when you take a step back and realize the value that you bring, it actually is a lot more than you realize.

Lillian Liang Emlet: So interesting. [00:03:00] We definitely don't take ourselves for the credit and the worth that we have, and I think the fact that we are continuous learners, the fact that over a 10 year experience, there's all kinds of things we have learned along the way in leadership, in teamwork, in structuring projects, in helping the organization grow aside from just the patient care aspect alone.

Sara Fung: And I think that when I talk to nurses, right, I say think about the most memorable patients you've had. I'm sure there are a lot of things you can't talk about, but in generalities, things that you've done to change people's lives, you literally save lives every day. And that's not something to minimize. And just because other nurses do it, doesn't make your experience any less valuable. There really aren't a lot of other industries where you could be part of someone's best day of their life, and then you have another patient, you're part of their worst day of their life, and they remember you for years and years afterward. And the way that we frame it is really [00:04:00] important. And not trying to think that well, just because I do it every day, that doesn't make it any less valuable.

Lillian Liang Emlet: What do you say for the nurse or the clinician who's not sure exactly how to step out? Because what they still love really is the day-to-day being with patients and their families whether it's in the clinic or in the hospital, and they're like, my boss, I don't think they're gonna let me go part-time. Or there is no part-time option to be able to try both. What do you do for people who really still do love clinical care and want to have some kind of aspect of that?

Sara Fung: I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Right? So if you are wanting a change, think about why you want that change. Maybe you're feeling burnt out, maybe you're just not happy with shift work. Maybe you're not feeling appreciated or valued, but you still, at its core, you do like helping people and making a difference. And so just keeping that in mind as you look for another opportunity, if that's something you want, is gonna be important. Because there are many ways to still interact with patients. There's many different ways to feel like you're [00:05:00] helping people while being in a different role, in a different setting. So for example, with my career coaching, I view my clients now as patients. So I say nurses are now my patients and I invest a lot of what I have into them because I want them to succeed. So if you're a healthcare provider, I'm sure you put a lot of energy into making sure your patients have the best outcomes. And essentially that's what I still do, but in a different context. And I do like hearing from my clients afterwards to see were they successful. Were they able to land a new role? How are they feeling now? A lot of times they do reach out to me without even me asking. I think there's a lot of different ways you could do that. So even if you were to, let's say you wanted to move into the private sector. If you wanted to work in, let's say pharmaceuticals or medical devices, you're still gonna have interaction with people and probably interaction with patients, but in a different context. So it might be getting a patient's feedback on a certain medication or talking to them on the [00:06:00] phone about how they feel about a different device that they've been given. So you just have to think to yourself, what are your long and short term goals? Maybe you've never even thought about it. Maybe you've never thought beyond the fact that I need to find a new job, and that is totally valid. So think about what do you want versus what's out there. And I think if you can think about what you want and what's important in your life, whether it be, maybe you want work-life balance. Maybe you're looking for opportunity for learning and growth. Maybe making a certain pay is really important to you. Try to prioritize what you're looking for and keep that at the forefront as you look for a new opportunity, because it's always great to say you don't like where you are, but if you're just taking another job for the sake of taking another job, it may not be a step up if you're not really doing the work to figure out what you want.

Lillian Liang Emlet: I love those pieces of advice. I think what's interesting is it's really hard to know what you want. I know that it takes a bit of time, exploration, conversation. I just want to normalize that. I think [00:07:00] a lot of people wonder why don't I know and how scary is this for the first time, after all these years, that right here, right now is not the right fit anymore. You've outgrown it, and yet you also have no idea what to expect on all the opportunities and having so many opportunities actually can paralyze people in terms of what can or should I do moving forward.

Sara Fung: I think that's very valid. So not knowing what you want is common, so I think starting with knowing what you don't want would be an easy sort of way to eliminate things, right? Like if you know you don't want to do shift work or you don't wanna work holidays anymore. Okay, great. That eliminates probably half the jobs out there. So if you kind of go through this process of elimination to think about what your deal breakers are, like maybe you don't wanna drive more than half an hour from where you live. Okay, great. That would just eliminate everything that's more than a 30 minute radius from where you live. And that's a great place to start. Or if you're looking around on social media or even within your personal network, if you see [00:08:00] someone who has what you think is your dream job, maybe just do a little bit of research on them or reach out to them and ask them, hey, I really admire your career path so far. Could you tell me a little bit more about how you got there? Or even look at their work history if you're on LinkedIn, and see what was their first sort of non-traditional step towards them getting to where they got to. And if you can narrow down to, I would say two to three different job titles, I think that makes things a lot less overwhelming versus applying to anything and everything you might be remotely qualified for, which is what I used to do and I know a lot of other people out there are doing now, and that really leads to a lot of the overwhelm.

Lillian Liang Emlet: That's really great advice. A lot of times you just think, oh, I'll shotgun it. The more the better, and instead it's the precision because then you're not sorting through all of the strange offers that you're gonna get, and then you're like, I'm not sure. I'm not sure, but it's apples and oranges and so it doesn't make any sense.

Sara Fung: Right, and I do have a healthcare recruiter on my team, and what sometimes people [00:09:00] do is they apply to every single open role at a certain organization, and that actually raises red flags to the person reviewing them because they think, well, what actually do you want? Because you just applied to 20 different jobs at this company, and I don't even know what you're looking for. Versus if you intentionally applied to two or three, then they would see, okay, maybe this person is looking for a leadership type role, or maybe they're looking for a project management type role, and I might be able to keep this person on file for future opportunities that might open up now that I know what they're looking for. So also, don't be afraid to be specific. Don't be afraid to reach out to a healthcare recruiter and let them know what you are looking for, because they may have other jobs that haven't been posted, but they would definitely keep you in mind for that.

Lillian Liang Emlet: So you really bring up a really great point about how important it is to work with a coach or a mentor, someone who's gonna help you solidify what are a couple, like 10 degree pivots or 20 degree pivots that you could try on that make logical sense on CV and also develop more things on your [00:10:00] resume so that it can be a different story looking backwards. And so I'm curious, tell us a little bit about how you got into this work and why it was a natural translation for you in the positions that you had previously.

Sara Fung: Well, as a bedside nurse, I was always looking for new opportunities and I knew that I loved helping people, but I never saw myself doing shift work long term. And so I was always looking for new opportunities and I've had so many non-traditional roles myself that I spent a lot of time crafting different resumes and cover letters and, you know, applying to hundreds of jobs and wondering why nothing stuck because I never did anything beyond just applying. I never told people I was looking, I never reached out to anybody. I never networked. Definitely didn't use LinkedIn. And I kept wondering like, why is no one calling me back? And this might be a common concern, like people just think the answer is to keep applying to more jobs. Not realizing that possibly [00:11:00] what you have on your resume or what you're presenting on LinkedIn is not specific enough to what they're looking for. So I meet a lot of nurses, I look at a lot of resumes, and I'm looking at this resume and it's got all this sort of direct patient care stuff, but it doesn't actually tell them, let's say you're applying for a public health role, it doesn't tell them how you're uniquely qualified for that. And so really what you have to do is look at the job description and tailor your application to that versus just throwing out a generic resume. So in this day and age that is the standard that's expected. And it does suck because it's different than the way I got into a lot of these jobs. But sometimes you just have to know how to adapt. And it's not necessarily about working harder, but it's about working smarter. And that's what I tell a lot of people. It's really just about doing things maybe differently than you've been doing before or differently than you've been taught, and it's not necessarily, I hate to say it, it's not necessarily the most experienced person that gets the job every [00:12:00] time. It's the person that can articulate their value the best, and the person who knows how to network and form these relationships.

Lillian Liang Emlet: Such great pearls and points. I was gonna say that most of us are really never taught to own our career story. And it's hard. It's super hard, which is why I think career coaches are so prevalent right now. Because we all have to figure out what our own personal, they call it, personal brand, what your story is for your own career. You wake up one day and you realize, I am more than showing up for my clinical shifts. I'm so much more than that in this organization and yet it's really hard to articulate. So what strategies do you use to help your clients articulate their impact and their vision as leaders, even if they don't have a title? Because sometimes it's about people's work, in terms of they've actually served on many committees and had a role, and for other people it's a title. I'm curious how you help them own their career story.

Sara Fung: I think a lot of people don't realize that if you are in healthcare, and especially if [00:13:00] you're nursing, that you are a leader whether you feel that way or not. So with your patients and the families you care for, they look at you as a leader. So much of what happens to them is directly in your hands, and you may not feel that way because you're younger or you're more junior, or you don't feel valued or appreciated, but you actually are a leader. Every healthcare provider is a leader, whether they feel that way or not. So I think it's really about how you share your journey, right? So rather than saying, oh, I was just a nurse and I only worked for five years, it's like, no, you were a med surg nurse. Let's say you were part of a different initiative or quality improvement initiative. A lot of people say to me, well, I didn't lead it. And I said, but were you part of it? Like, were you part of the journey? Were you part of that unit when you achieved a designation as a unit or as an organization? Because you can still mention that even if you didn't have the formal title of manager or leader, if you are part of that change, it's all about teamwork, right? In [00:14:00] healthcare. So it's not one single person that can take the credit for success. It's everybody. So think about the different initiatives that your unit was part of, or maybe an educator or a manager led. If you were part of that, you can still own part of that. You could say you were instrumental in, or you assisted in, or you co-led an initiative that, let's say decreased falls by 40%. And so having numbers actually is really quantitative success. So a lot of times, even if you've never been away from the bedside, if you can talk about how many patients you manage per shift, how many beds were on the unit, how many beds in your total organization, it gives a lot of context. Or I've had clients before that worked in COVID vaccination clinics, and I said, can you tell me how many vaccines you administered per day? How many did the entire operation do per day, per week? So these are numbers that give context and it is very different giving, let's say five vaccinations versus [00:15:00] 50 in a day because you're showing your ability to work under pressure, to manage time, to really work efficiently and also be able to deliver patient education. So just to round this question, if you're not sure what you can do, start by asking the people around you. Ask your friends and family, what am I great at? Ask your coworkers, how do you describe me as a provider? What are some great qualities that I have? And sometimes it's really just building your own confidence to hear from other people what they think your strengths are.

Lillian Liang Emlet: I love those two main nuggets. One is like thinking through who your hype squad could be. People who are your mentors, colleagues, peers, supporters, in terms of, it's often hard to have the mirror reflected for you and who better than those people on your team? And then also to make sure that we understand where we're working, in what context. A lot of times we work in these very large organizations. We actually don't know the impact that we are making, especially when we are the person who does the reports, [00:16:00] the unsung heroes of actually getting all of those quality improvement projects done to be able to say that there's no infection rate for this particular unit or that we implemented a protocol. Sure, there's many people leading that team. And also even if you are the front lines, we often talk about with our leadership and wellbeing coaching that everyone is a leader of their own life. And you lead even from places without a title on the entire team. It's just a matter of explaining it. It's honestly explaining to someone on the airplane that you sit down next to what exactly do you do? And trying to explain to someone who's not contextually in the field, the more granular details you can provide helps them even understand context, especially if you're someone in, let's say manufacturing or retail, they understand numbers and the things that you just said, Sara, in terms of then they can imagine like what it's like to be in this clinic, right? With the five vaccines versus the 2000 vaccines and what kind of paperwork or process that might have to be involved to [00:17:00] be able to even just show up for your shifts. Be the crew lead for your shifts with a team of seven, that's very different from a solo practice, with just your own little cart and you as a rover throughout the hospital system. And they're very different. They teach you different skills and yet they're both vaccine nurses, for example.

Sara Fung: One of the things I did too as a bedside nurse is I joined a lot of different committees. So if you feel like you have capacity to do that, that would be a way to get experience in understanding what quality improvement is and how is it working right now? What are some initiatives that your unit is working on? It's a great way to get noticed by leaders too. So if you're on these committees and let's say an opportunity comes up, even if it's a part-time one or something of a contract, they might think of you because you already have that experience. I hear from nurses all the time that want to get into informatics, and a really great way is to volunteer to be a super user. If your unit is changing to a new electronic medical record system, or they're upgrading, [00:18:00] they often need super users. It's more like a train the trainer model, so that would be a really great way to get your feet wet, see if you even wanna do it. It's great to add to your resume and just build on these types of skills without having to make a big commitment like another degree or taking a course of some kind.

Lillian Liang Emlet: Yeah, basically just head towards people who are adjacent to the things that you want, and then you'll get closer and closer to all kinds of new people that think a little differently and expand your mind and get you excited to do something slightly different. And it's a process. It's a process to get to volunteer to all of those things. So I love that, 'cause a lot of times people are told no, don't do these things. And in the yeses is where the new opportunities come.

Sara Fung: And I would also say if your organization currently will fund any sort of additional education or training that you can take, you might want to do that because now that I'm on my own, I have to fund all my continuous education. So if you are thinking of making a jump, [00:19:00] and you have the capacity, just look at what's already available to you, or if they're gonna reimburse you for any sort of additional training that you take, you could take advantage of that too.

Lillian Liang Emlet: That's a great point. So I'm curious, as someone who's transitioned from hospital leadership and education to coaching and entrepreneurship, what leadership lessons from the bedside or the hospital systems or the unit life do you still carry into your business today?

Sara Fung: I think it's all of the stories I carry with me. So a lot of people that reach out to me reach out simply because I'm a nurse and I understand where they're coming from. So I think remaining true to my roots and remembering all the hard times I went through. I think the skills I still use daily are conflict resolution. So when dealing with difficult patients and families, there are certain people I deal with right now who are difficult. I still use some of those same skills and even when I'm doing my coaching, right, I do things like reflecting statements. So it sounds like you're feeling like this or you're saying this. So a lot of that training I learned in [00:20:00] motivational interviewing, I still use every single day. Time management, for sure. I still use that. And I think just emotional intelligence, so walking into a room and being able to read the situation. Even though a lot of the work I do now is virtual, it's still going to a room looking at not just what the person's saying, but how they're saying it and trying to feel their emotions. You know, are they upset and do I need to reassure them or are they ready to make a move and I need to encourage them. So a lot of that emotional intelligence we have as providers and we've developed over time, but sometimes it's hard to articulate that. Using your intuition. I still do that a lot when I'm deciding if I want to work with someone or not, or an opportunity's presented to me. I still have to use my intuition in addition to being logical. And I would say also as nurses, we're used to adaptability, so being able to adapt is really important in business. So recognizing when something's not working and pivoting or if something is working, then [00:21:00] doubling down on what that is to be able to grow and scale whatever that looks like.

Lillian Liang Emlet: Those are all excellent points and the resilience and the hard work and the mix of the art and science, especially with all of the emotional intelligence we have to use on a day-to-day basis, working with colleagues, peers, families, patients. I'm wondering, to sort of round out our conversation, when healthcare professionals are looking for non-traditional opportunities, whether that's consulting or tech or executive roles, how should they be strategically positioning themselves? What's the difference between someone who actually lands the position versus someone who gets overlooked? And they're both highly qualified.

Sara Fung: Yeah, I think it's just going back to what I said earlier, figuring out your direction first before you just start applying to everything. Right? So it is going to take a little bit of self-reflection on your part, either with or without help. I think it's doable either way, but really figuring out what direction do I [00:22:00] wanna go in? And maybe you have a hundred directions, but just try to pick a few. And that way you can really craft a strong resume and LinkedIn profile that demonstrates to someone looking at it that you have the skills that they're looking for. And the other thing I would say is, depending on which direction you wanna go, use some of the language that they use. So if you're looking at job postings, look at some of those keywords and commonly used phrases and try to use those to describe the value that you can bring. Like, for example, if you're going into healthcare leadership, it might be looking at length of stay, right? Or bed flow, like some of the terms. And even if you talk to people or you listen to people in conversation, pay attention to what are the key phrases they're using to describe what they do. And it may be really saying the same thing, but differently. So if you're able to demonstrate that you have some level of awareness or expertise about what the job involves, that'll really help. Some other out of the box ideas would be even arranging for a shadow day with someone who has a position you're looking [00:23:00] for. I did that myself. I was thinking at one point about going into nurse practitioner school. I shadowed two different nurse practitioners at two different organizations. I just called them up and asked them, and you'd be surprised how many people don't do that. Or if you are really just wanting to know about someone's day to day, even going on somewhere like LinkedIn and reaching out to someone and just make it a very small ask, right? So don't be like, please help me get a job. Just say, I love what you've done with your career so far. Could you tell me a little bit more about how you got there, or would you be willing to get on a call for 10 or 15 minutes with me? So don't make it a big ask, like an hour. Just ask for 10 or 15 minutes and see what you can get through in that time. People love sharing their successes. People love talking about themselves, and I think that would be a really easy thing to do. And just one last tip I wanna share with people is if you've been applying and applying and there's a really target job you have or an organization you wanna work for, after you apply online, you might want to [00:24:00] print a hard copy of your resume and hand deliver it, because then you can actually talk to someone that works there. You can have a feel for the workplace and it helps you stand out. And a lot of people will tell you, oh, well you have to apply online, and this is where you can say, I already did. I just wanted to personally bring a copy of my resume to you to make sure you got it. And I've actually heard of stories where nurses have done that and then they go back through the online applications and they find where you are and then they call you for an interview.

Lillian Liang Emlet: Fascinating. The good old real in person is coming back, which is exciting because you do get lost in the digital chain. It often does take a telephone call or you look through your network to figure out who else works there, because even just another side email via the non-HR chain helps people get a position in a place that they want to work simply because, like you said, you get lost in the 300 of their applicants. It's hard to know. But this person actually does have a special connection and desire [00:25:00] and interest, and to go the extra mile to have someone either advocate for you, connect with you, and if you don't, I love your tip of just do it yourself. Just get out there and just swing by and it can't hurt.

Sara Fung: Right. The worst they can say is, no, we can't take your resume, or no one's here to talk to you. Best case scenario is that maybe you even get a chance to tour the unit or workplace, or have a mini kind of informal interview with the manager. So I would just see what happens, right? The worst that can happen is nothing, and that's already where you are anyway, if you haven't landed your next job.

Lillian Liang Emlet: So is there anything that you'd like to tell our audience in terms of how they can work with you or how to continue this conversation?

Sara Fung: Yeah, I mean, I am on LinkedIn, so if you wanna follow me on LinkedIn, Sara Fung. I think a lot of these are gonna be in the show notes. You can also visit my website, sarafung.com. And by the way, my name is Sara with no h. People mess that up a lot. [00:26:00] I have a YouTube channel. I'm on Instagram, so lots of different ways and I think you are gonna put my newsletter link as well. So I love to share daily inspiration through my posts, and I also send out this newsletter every other week. One other area that I'm starting to get into is actually financial literacy, so helping people understand their finances because I think a big part of what holds people back is the golden handcuffs, right? So maybe you're not happy where you are and you know you need to make a change. But you're worried about what you could be leaving behind, and I think a lot of times it's great to advocate for a salary increase, but you could be making all the money in the world. If you don't know how to manage that money, then you might still be in a situation where you don't feel like you have any choices.

Lillian Liang Emlet: So true. So much more we could do a whole nother episode for. So subscribe to our channel and if you want more of Sara, wanna have her come back for a second episode, tell me in the show notes and we'll continue this conversation about careers in healthcare and other opportunities for people in healthcare. [00:27:00] So thanks everybody for listening to the Transforming Healthcare Coaching Podcast. Thank you Sara, so much for coming on and sharing your wisdom, guidance and coaching with all of our members in healthcare across the world.

Sara Fung: Thank you so much for having me.

Lillian Liang Emlet: Have a great day, everybody. Bye.

Sara Fung: Bye.