Standing Up for Doctors:
Protecting Physician Mental Health

Transforming Healthcare Coaching Podcast — Episode 87: Standing UP for Doctors with Kim Downey. Host: Lillian Liang Emlet, MD MS CHSE CPC ELI-MP. Guest: Kim Downey, PT.

Lillian Emlet: Hi everyone. Welcome to the Transforming Healthcare Coaching Podcast, and this week I am super excited to end out 2025 with the one the only Kim Downey. And I am so excited because when you watch and you meet people on LinkedIn, you know it's one thing to. See them, see what they post about, watch their videos, hear what they're about, and then to get to meet them too and just really get to see someone as warm and as caring as Kim.

And so I will let her introduce herself and then we'll get into it.

Kim Downey: Thank you Lily. That's a beautiful introduction and I appreciate it, and I enjoyed meeting you just as much. And yeah. So my name is Kim Downey. I'm a. Physical therapist by training. And I recently had cancer three times. And then one of my amazing doctors took his own life and I felt a calling to support doctors.

So I started stand up for doctors and that's what we're here to talk about.

Lillian Emlet: Thank you so much for sharing with us. When you were inspired to create standup for doctors it really was a shining a light on physician mental health. And could you tell us a little bit about the story? And I know you don't wanna give away completely the story that's in the first part of the book.

But why was shining a light so important to you personally for you to begin this work? In general?

Kim Downey: Sure. My first cancer was thyroid cancer in November of 2020, and I experienced a complication which led to, many more doctors and many more tests, and then more things happened the next summer, which was. more doctors, many more tests. And then some of that was resolving. Then I developed breast cancer, more doctors wore tests.

And then I had, by the time I finished treatment, I realized I had breast cancer on the other side. And that was, more same doctors, more tests. so it was two constant years of medical issues, where before in my life, I never really felt like a patient. Like years ago I had an appendectomy, but it's like that emergency thing happened. A doctor took care of it and I went back to my regular life. That's what I thought was gonna happen with the thyroid surgery. She was gonna take out the thyroid, and I was gonna go back to my regular life. So I wasn't prepared. I kept thinking one more thing and I'll be done, one more thing and I'll get back to my regular life.

And that wasn't happening. And I also then got introduced to about 40 doctors over a period of time, and I had amazing experiences and I had some pretty poor experiences as well. then when it culminated, when I thought after the two years of, constant issues, that this was finally gonna be a routine visit.

And one of my doctor wasn't there and I asked where he was and they said he died a month ago. I couldn't even believe it. And I asked what happened and they said, the family hasn't shared that. And I just got this sick feeling in my stomach. I just thought that he had taken his own life and came to find out that was true. And I don't know how other this. Other to say it than that, I did feel a calling to support doctors. So I've chose to focus on trying to make a positive difference.

Lillian Emlet: Thank you so much again for sharing that story. 'cause I know it's hard. You go on so many podcasts and you have your own YouTube channel as well and your own show to be able to try to highlight these stories and really I think what's been so amazing about. Realizing how the impact on all of the patients are.

When physicians or when healthcare providers take their own life, there is a much larger ripple effect than just their immunity of family. It is so much larger than that. And it is commendable that. You are like, I'm gonna do something different. I'm gonna try to make people more aware of really how much of a problem this is.

And I'm curious whether you'd be willing to share some of the data since you've now become an expert in what the data and statistics show. Curious what you've found out in this journey with standing up, standing stand up for doctors.

Kim Downey: One thing, speaking to your point of the long-term impacts is actually Dr. Todd Otin and I. Co-wrote a Kevin MD article last December and it, we called it the Long-Term Impacts of physician Suicide on Doctor and Patients. He had four colleagues take their own life and just the toll and trauma it exacted on him over a period of time.

And then myself, like actually I know we're recording this a little before it'll be published, but this week is actually the three year anniversary of my doctor taking his own life. And in a way I couldn't believe that it's been three years because everything that happened to me felt, more recent than that.

And when I was discussing it with our book editor this morning, I got teary. So it really is, that's, something really important to point out that you're saying, that I don't think there's a lot of people talking about the impact on patients when a doctor takes his own life. But the statistic that people quote. Is 400 doctors a year, taking their own life. Now that's just America. And I have a sense that those are old numbers and it could be vastly, sadly, under reported for various reasons. And sometimes, they might not even know what ha right? It could have been disguised enough either intentionally or unintentionally. That it's not identified as a suicide or each family has the right to choose, how they wanna share that information, and sometimes families don't choose to share that. So that's already horrible that you think of like more than a doctor a day. Is dying that way. And the, it's even more horrible that those numbers might be under-reported.

And again, that's not counting the uk, the rest of the world, 'cause I have some doctor friends now there and around the world.

Lillian Emlet: Yeah, I think what's incredible, all about all of this is that, um. With your colleague that wrote the Kevin MD article is that our groups, that we, we work right alongside each other and yet we don't feel like one we can recognize it or see it or be a safe harbor for each other.

And it makes you start to second guess. I think almost everyone I know has really, has neither known of or been in proximity by one degree apart of someone who has, depression, anxiety, suicide. And it is, it's hard for groups, it's hard for leaders, for leaders to feel the long-term guilt for whether there's something, anything that could have been done differently.

Kim Downey: Yeah,

Lillian Emlet: I.

Kim Downey: And sometimes it's hard to know because if they try to keep if they keep it quiet. 'cause lots of times like. People at work don't hear about it or it's not talked about it and you sometimes you don't know why. And it can seem uncaring, but it could be that the family didn't want that shared, or it could be that they don't wanna, worry other colleagues or something like that. But if you can mention whatever the family is willing to share in a caring way and offer opportunities to talk about it. That would really help. Sometimes I wish that they could have offered, the healthcare system, Hey, if you were a patient of this doctor and you wanna talk about it,

Lillian Emlet: Yes. Yeah, and I think it's one of those things where I think my friend often quotes Mr. Rogers, if you can talk about, if you can mention it, then it becomes less scary. I didn't do a very good job for Mr. Rogers,

Kim Downey: no.

Lillian Emlet: But really we need to talk about things, which is again, why I think.

In thinking through your last five years, you've been through a whirlwind from your own cancer treatments to now standing up for doctors. You spent so much time listening to and working closely with physicians and you're now bringing these stories to light because I think it's through the stories we understand that we're not alone, that we can find that we are, it's very relatable.

The issues, the challenges. Of all of the people that you've been able to interview, so what are some of the most powerful stories or themes that you've heard and how they have shaped your understanding of what doctors are facing?

Kim Downey: There's so many, you and I could have like a conversation this whole entire day about that if I was going to spotlight a few, one of the early conversations I had, and I actually had pulled out his book here, is Dr. Tony Aveeno. He wrote the book Finding Purpose, A Neurosurgeon's Journey of Hope and Healing, and he was.

The first after my physician coach, who I reached out to, we he became my physician coach after I reached out to him, Dr. Michael Hirsch, shortly after my doctor died. But then that January I was like, oh, like doctors will talk to you when they don't have to talk to you. Just 'cause I had a dad other than family members.

Just conversations like that. So he had written a, a Kevin MD article, speaking to his book, and I reached out to him. Because he shared we're exactly the same age, and he was at Cornell while I was at Ithaca. We could have crossed paths there. And he shares in the book how he was in the process of taking his own life and he reversed it.

And he said, it's not the hundreds of kids' lives you save. They keep you up at night. It's the few that you don't. By an honest mistake or the disease process. So we had, he offered to have a conversation and I just told him, I'm so glad he's okay. And then he was one of the first guests on my YouTube channel and we spoke about the messages in his book.

And then he asked me if I'd like to collaborate on an article with him, and he wanted to call it A patient reached out to a doctor and they helped each other heal. And I thought that was beautiful. So we did that and recorded a podcast. And then Tony is also featured, we haven't really mentioned my book yet, but this collaborative book, white Coats, courageous Hearts, true Stories of Doctors reclaiming their humanity in a system that challenges it. So his story, was one, he was in the lowest of low pay places and he doesn't want anyone to get that low. So he shares, what helped him and how doctors can move forward. So I think his message is critical. And then another one I also, again, found out very early on from Kevin MD article was Dr.

David Ey. had written this book, saving Grace. He's a retired anesthesiologist. What patients teach their doctors about life, death, and the balance in between. And this is a beautiful book where he just shares honestly and raw, the good, the bad, and the ugly and things he was proud of and things that he wasn't.

And I thought that was a beautiful. for people to see the humanity in physicians. And then he also wrote a chapter in our book and he wrote about something that wasn't in this book, which again, I wasn't aware of. And it was the risk of substance use disorder and anesthesiologist highlighting risk for all doctors. And it's quite an issue, which I wasn't aware of at all. So again, bringing these stories to light is ver is so important. then just the last one I'll share is Dr. Todd Ian who I already mentioned that we collaborate on that article. He had written the book, ripple of Change, and he and his Pat, he ordered a medication for his patient.

Joshua, Judy, and Joshua suffered significant complication. Possibly still some residual effects. To this day of that medication. So of course Todd felt horrible because he is just trying to help the patient. But they wrote this book together and it's all about the health system and needing to change. And I think it spotlights beautifully, which in a way I've continued to do is doctors and patients sharing their stories together.

Lillian Emlet: I didn't expect so many amazing books to be all highlighted in a brief five minute overview. And so I think it just goes to show there are many stories out there, and the more that we can get that information out to others, they can see themselves in that story and also know that they're not alone. And I think what's amazing about the work that you've done is that, you are not a physician yourself, and yet you've stepped into a huge leadership role in this space when no one asked you to, and there was nothing else really out there. Really a really super grassroots mission forward way of bringing these stories to light. And I'm curious, what does, what has this experience with meeting individuals hearing their stories, highlighting their stories?

You're sponsoring all of these moments that others have the chance to say and do something different. What is it about this taking this initiative and standing up for others, even if you are, even if you are now a physician yourself? How, what leadership lessons can you impart for our.

Kim Downey: It to take me by surprise. Because I, I call myself like an accidental entrepreneur because I didn't plan on doing any of this. What happened is I wanted to find a way to help my own doctors, and by the time Mike, Dr. Michael ERs was coaching me, he connected me on LinkedIn and I thought, oh, if I talk to some doctors. Maybe they can help me find ways to help my own doctors. And one of the first ones I talked to was Tara. And he also writes a chapter, the first physician chapter in our book. And it's a parallel story about both of us in our trauma and, in healing and why we're doing this work. So then I, they weren't really. Able to give me specific ways that I could help my own doctors. But then I started finding ways to help them and it, then I started talking to doctors around the world and it just, grew bigger and bigger. And to your point, so in our book, white Coats, courageous Hearts, Dr.

Simon Craig writes one of the endorsements in the beginning, and he, and so his book is from Herding to Healing, delivering Love to Medicine and Healthcare, and that's an incredible book. And this is a book that made me first see that these issues are ubiquitous around the world. And over time, he's in Australia. And he shares the same kind of story. So some people that just think it's our US healthcare system, that's the problem. These, they're having issues in the uk, they're having issues in Australia. So this really is a worldwide problem and doctors and patients are suffering. but in this in our book, when he wrote the endorsement. He wrote, the first thing he wrote was, in a short space of time, Kim Downey has become a very important voice in healthcare. And I was like, wow. The fact that he said that, and he's a doctor in Australia. So I feel like when I first started, I told, because Dr. Michael Hirsh and I were in a group, it ended up like a group of doctors that were supporting each other's posts. So I would support their posts, but I'm not a doctor. Like I can't go to doctor conferences. I didn't think I'd be meeting the doctors, so I. Didn't feel like I was really on the team. I told him like, I felt like a water boy.

Lillian Emlet: Oh,

Kim Downey: around being their

Lillian Emlet: Yes.

Kim Downey: think.

And he's what makes you think you're not on the team right? To be doing his good coaching thing? And I was like, I don't know. But it is interesting 'cause a lot of doctors watch Ted Lasso, are you

Lillian Emlet: Oh yeah. I love sla, so yes.

Kim Downey: started watching it because of the doctors. And then just now before we got on the call, I was thinking that kind of I started out like Nathan, right?

Like the one

Lillian Emlet: Yes.

Kim Downey: the soccer ball and all that, right? But then he became, because over

Lillian Emlet: Right.

Kim Downey: like doctors have called me like the central hub, like their leader, like a super connector, and I was like, oh my gosh. I guess I would just say it goes to show you. I'll also add that I'm modeling what I'm doing after my really good friend Paul Murray. She lives in Sandy Hook and I live in the town that border Sandy Hook. And the Sandy Hook shooter lived a hundred yards from her house and after the tragedy she started Newtown Action Alliance and she's been working tirelessly for the past almost 13 years. On gun violence prevention. So she was a mom of four kids and she decided, I'm gonna make a difference.

I'm gonna tackle this. And now if you Google Paul Murray, she does press conferences. She's had her picture taken with the presidents. She's knows everyone on Capitol Hill. She's in and outta DC all the time. She's even traveled internationally with this work. And she's trying to find common ground among all the gun violence prevention groups. So they can have a bigger voice. 'cause

The little ones like, Gun Violence, Brady campaign, Gabby Givers, if they're all trying to do their little thing, you're not gonna make as big of an impact as if you all joined together.

Lillian Emlet: right.

Kim Downey: I feel like, again, without planning it, that I've modeled, what I'm doing after Poe and she's my model that goes to show you like what one person can do if they wanna make a difference. And some of it is just keep showing up. That's what I do. I just keep and I'm authentic and talk about the issues and share the stories of doctors and it's simple as that. It's a lot of work, but.

Lillian Emlet: Amazing. That's an incredible leadership lesson, and you are correct. The fact that trauma doesn't necessarily define us is what you do with after the trauma that makes the most difference. To write the books, to tell the stories, to save a life that you don't know, that that you can reach out across the internet waves internationally and to be able to bring everything together because you are right.

There's so much of us are siloed in our own bubbles, and that's when we feel alone. And in this digital age as, as vilified as social media and all the different things are, there's also a lot of good work being done. By being able to expand our reach and show that one individual can make that big of a difference.

And I think especially in the way different from organizations, there are many organizations, you and I are both ambassadors for the Dr. Lorna Breen of Heroes Foundation. And so there are many wonderful organizations and it's one of those things when the organizations are willing to partner together and make a coalition.

I can see that's probably where where you might be, where you might be headed because you are the one unifying factor that really transcends just a local local effort, local efforts also being important as well.

And so I'm curious what do you see along those lines as the biggest barriers both culturally and systemically that keeps physicians from getting the mental health support that they need?

Kim Downey: So thank you for spotlighting our ambassador work with the Dr. Lauren Green Heroes Foundation because I recently. Wrote an co-wrote an article with Corey Feist, who was Dr. Lorna Beam's brother-in-law. And we recently published a podcast with Kevin md and it was titled, the article Health Workers Deserve Care too, how to Protect their Mental Health. there are. The barriers and stigma are both real and perceived. And so I have a physical therapy license, and on the back of my PT license, I only have to check off like, was I convicted of a felony in the last year? Things like that. There's not, there's never, I've been a. I graduated PT school in 1988, I've never had to answer any intrusive questions about my mental health whatsoever. That's not the case for doctors, nurses, pharmacists. They have to check off, have you ever sought help for mental health condition? There's things like that. So in a way, they feel damned if they do, damned if they don't, because if they check off, yes. And sometimes they need to be monitored there.

There's hurdles to go through. Sometimes people don't wanna hire them. But if they check no, then they're lying on their license application. And if they get caught or something does come up, then that can cause its own set of problems. So that's already a horrible catch 22 place to be in, which actually goes against the Americans with Disabilities Act.

And that was why our title is Perfect. Health Workers deserve, the right to healthcare workers have the right to, and in our article. We spotlight the six pillars that the Dr. Lorna Breen Heroes Foundation is working on. And when we're done, I can send you the link to this article because I won't go into details.

But the six things really, one is like accessible and afford affordable mental health care, and accessible meaning a lot of doctors aren't working nine to five. if that, or they're working nine to five, right? And if that's the only time that psychologists and psychiatrists are available, that's not helpful to them.

So we need, wraparound care. And then also confidential professional or physician health program support. Some doctors that do seek help. I've heard they've crossed state lines because they don't want anyone locally to know that they're seeking help. And then also just general. Equal privacy and mental health care, again, that you don't have to disclose or there aren't notes being shared, you know about their the details of their mental health care and also confidential peer support.

Sometimes just having that one-on-one with a peer that really gets it and has been through it, that's something else that leaders can really do to support their healthcare workers', mental health. And also, this is really a big one. Education and training on mental health and professional wellbeing. And just to read one sentence from our article, undergraduate, graduate, and postgraduate training programs must prepare health workers to manage the stressors of patient care. Recognize when stress poses risk to mental health and know how to access health worker specific mental health resources. So I say that time and a time again is the culture.

Medicine has to change and it needs to start in med school. So I, I particularly spotlighting that one and also a supportive pathway for reentry because when doctors do seek health, sometimes just the challenge in hurdles to get back to practicing again. Are astronomical and it shouldn't be that way.

Lillian Emlet: Thank you so much for sharing those things. It's I feel like I'm lucky because I'm in environments where these efforts are being made in many of these aspects, and I think part of it is just. Sometimes you feel like you're saying the same thing again and again, and then suddenly randomly.

You've told them 15 times already. Everyone, all this information that you just shared and then randomly one person out was, I can't remember. Did someone mention something six months ago when I got oriented to my new job? Or, two years later when you finally do need the resources, you realize it's somewhere, but I'm not a hundred percent sure how to access them and how to.

And how to do things. And so it is everyone's job to make sure that they do know. And so I guess that clearly leads into especially the leaders. So how can healthcare leaders start to break down these barriers and also provide all of those pillars of care that you're recommending? What can leaders do?

Kim Downey: There's some of it is so Joshua Hartzel, I didn't grab that book off shelf, but he just wrote a prescription for caring and healthcare leadership. And I recently interviewed him and I was like that should be obvious. We shouldn't need a book like Caring Leaders in Healthcare, but the key, but it's not true.

And I think some of the problem is. Is that I'm learning a lot about trauma-informed care and trauma-informed leadership, and we're all walking around. Most people have experienced trauma in their life,

Sometimes leaders have experienced their own trauma and they don't have the bandwidth to acknowledge the trauma of their healthcare workers.

And then

Lillian Emlet: Yeah.

Kim Downey: workers, physicians and others have their own trauma and sometimes they maybe don't give as much grace to the healthcare leaders realizing the struggles they might have. And sometimes not the bandwidth for their patients either. And then patients, because they're showing up, with their own trauma and pain and health

Lillian Emlet: Right.

Kim Downey: aren't recognizing the doctors or healthcare leaders as human.

And that they might have their own trauma too. So I feel like if it has to start at the top. That leadership should be trauma-informed. Leadership is critical, and there is, there's trauma-informed therapy. There's trauma-informed coaching, so they need to access that themselves because if they're not in a good place themselves, like we say, everyone wins when physicians are well, and physician advocacy equals patient advocacy. You can take that a step higher with the leadership, right? If the leaders aren't well. They aren't gonna be showing up as their best selves for the people who work for them. So the first one is, would really be taking care of their own health, mental and physical health and resources. And then also making sure that their employees. Have those resources well, and just really deep listening, showing up with kindness and being willing to ask the questions. And again, Dr. Lorna Breen Heroes Foundation is an excellent resource because they would have toolkits and things that they can teach like healthcare leaders. And I actually, I believe in our podcast with Kevin MD Corey shared.

A specific story about a nurse was gonna go leave her shift and take her own life, but the nurse, her nursing leader had been trained to recognize risk factors and approach this nurse and actually save that nurse's life.

Lillian Emlet: That is incredible,

Kim Downey: things, if they have the right information and tool and it's training like anything else, like you get CPR training, right?

Lillian Emlet: right?

Kim Downey: we could have training to recognize, risk signs and risk factors that could go along, that's something else that could go a long way.

Lillian Emlet: Yeah, and I think it's one of those things, this is the reason why for transforming healthcare coaching, we really have emphasized we are a leadership plus wellbeing coaching for healthcare leaders and all leaders of all professions because it really takes the team for your system, your group to really be healthy and well.

And we focus. First on the leader, and then to the team, and then to the system. And so we have a sequential process that we go through very deliberately that we first must change the leader. Because if the leader themselves are not well and grounded, then the rest is, just pretend play. We can, and this is interesting because coming from a, simulation and teaching sort of background, it's interesting to really now focus more on the individual and that everyone deserves to have access. To coaching in a different way forward earlier in their career. 'cause I think some of these, like you said, real versus perceived.

So much of what we create in our own minds is what's what we perceive as the where the system and what's reality between our colleagues and our professions across the spectrum.

Kim Downey: Yeah, absolutely to all of that. Very well said.

Lillian Emlet: And so I'm curious from your vantage point, what can physicians learn from your journey about self leadership in terms of courage, persistence, and using your voice for change? 'cause I think, I've spoken to many physicians and I think they're also a little bit scared. They are not as courageous as you in terms of what you've done to be able to speak up for a, for the physician.

Profession. And for mental health, there's a lot of people who are scared and so what advice or lessons might you be able to gently impart?

Kim Downey: So to spotlight, well, what I said before, along with the mental health stigma, there's real and perceived obstacles to raising your voice because there's some doctors

Work for a system, I think just. Once or twice, like if they were gonna be on my podcast, they had to get it approved by work.

And you would think your work doesn't own your healthcare system, doesn't own you like you're your own person. So some things there is like real or perceived and they're maybe afraid to speak up. Can I say this? While I'm employed by so and so other doctors just put disclaimers right when they're on social media, like my views are my own.

Things like, so that's one thing just to say, my views are my own right. I'm an own person, like I'm my own person. They don't own you.

Lillian Emlet: Okay.

Kim Downey: also being willing to be a little bit vulnerable. And, Brene Brown has that book, write The Power of Vulnerability and physicians talk about that.

And Dr. Michael Hirsch just wrote speaking to that in our book. And like in, in he'll say, being vulnerable doesn't mean you have to tell people everything. But he said, just as he, he spent most of his life hiding and trying not to be seen. But once he let little pieces of himself show. He was surprised at how well it was received, and all of us just want to be. Listen, seen, heard value, right? You want people to know the real you. So just taking very small steps, so pe to share little p bits and pieces of yourself. So if you do it gradually, you will be surprised. 'cause even on LinkedIn, like some doctors share very vulnerable times and those seem to be the posts that get hundreds of comments of support. So that's one thing is being willing to take, to be a little bit vulnerable. And the next thing would be just taking one small step. If you feel like there's something you wanna do or you're feeling stuck, or things could be different, you can just think say it's like your day to day and you feel like you have so little control of your day. has at least 10 to 20% control of your day. Like it's not that you have no control, right? So if you think about what can I control? And again, using Dr. Michael Hurs as an example, he shared where. on his team got lunch except him. They wouldn't, because he does, he's a GI doctor, so he performs colonoscopies and they said, no, it'll slow.

There won't be as many cases, or it'll slow everything down if you take lunch. But it's would you want, to be his last case of the day if the guy has it at a ch, if he's hungry and tired and has to go to the bathroom, right? So like literally. So he kept trying and trying, and finally he got a lunch break and now a lot of his colleagues, just to follow the on the bandwagon and have a lunch break too.

So it's standing up for, what you believe in and just taking one small step. Is it writing an email? Is it prioritizing exercise over dream schooling on social media? What do you need? What do you want in taking one small step, and also again, just to question any limiting beliefs that you have, is to, because again, I've learned this from, Dr.

Michael EY does like a thought download. so if you write down just all the things you're thinking today, right at or at the end of the day, or I had no control, or, I'm gonna get in trouble for this or no, just whatever it is. And then go back and look at the list. And you could make two lists from that.

Like the things that are, actual facts that are true, right? It was a long, hard day, or I did 25 cases, but then. Circle the things that are just thoughts about that, that, oh I was the worst doctor in the universe, right? Is that Then he goes, is that true? Is that really true? What if the opposite is also true?

So just starting to realize what are facts and what are your limiting beliefs, and starting to question them.

Lillian Emlet: Thank you for sharing so many pearls. And so I'll just reiterate for everyone, the very small things, it just takes really tiny advocacy for yourself. That little things are enough. And I often tell people, you get five minutes in the car you can just spend an extra 10 minutes in the bathroom.

You get, you can choose a small little moment for yourself. And to not start big because when you just, when you start to do small little things for yourself, it's like radical braveness for yourself. You feel a little more courageous to do the next big thing. And you know what? It doesn't it doesn't change anything.

I still remember, when I was pumping back, when I had know my daughter and I was like, I guess I need to figure this out. So I would go off into the call room and do that, and I accidentally became more efficient because I would do all my notes at the same time and I'm like, oh, this is really great.

I have an unintended side effects. I have to biologically care for myself. I am sorry. It's like just eating, or peeing it. These are biological facts of being a human. And there's still a way that you'll still win out in the end. It's not wrong to advocate for just normal biological things.

An extra five minutes in the bathroom. Take a couple deep breaths and just have a moment to yourself so you can notice what's real opinions and that's not real. And just notice what is, what's okay, what's actually going okay in the day. So thank you so much for sharing those great pearls of wisdom.

Kim Downey: You're welcome.

Lillian Emlet: And so finally, the last question I have for you is, if a physician listening today is quietly struggling or really any healthcare provider is, quietly struggling, keeping it all inside and really is too afraid to become vulnerable and doesn't have a safe group to go to, or if a leader really wants to find a way to make sure that they can create an environment of psychological safety to support their group, their colleagues better, what's one practical step that.

A leader or an individual can take right now if there's suffering going on in the group.

Kim Downey: Sure. So for the physician themself, for an individual Dr. Am shared, and because we collaborate on a Kevin MD article and she was saying, when you're feeling really low, you. Even asking for help feels like too much work or too much struggle, but you have to take that step. Don't wait till you feel like doing it, and even if it feels monumental or you're a little bit scared. There's, there is a safe person. And for you, who is that? You just tell one person, whether it's a pastor there's list of coaches. You're a coach. I know a ton of amazing physician coaches. There's so many, a psychologist, a psychiatrist, a mentor, a friend, a spouse, a partner. Just tell one person, don't keep it all inside. And to know that you're not alone and in asking for help, is a strength. That's not a weakness, and that is the most brave, courageous thing you can do is is ask for help. So I would say that from the physician standpoint and for the leader, I think it goes back to what we were just talking about a little while ago, is to create that culture of caring and and just supportive environment. So make sure physicians and other healthcare workers are aware of the resources, but that they also aren't sham resources. Or that they act like it's okay if you do this or take the time to have an appointment, but then if you try to do it, they give you a hard time. That should not happen.

Like it needs to be truly supportive, like they need to. Walk the walk, talk the talk and walk the walk. That we support the mental health of our healthcare workers because they need to know even if it affects their bottom line. Every time a another statistic would be, every time a physician leaves a healthcare system, it costs the organization 500,000 to a million dollars. So they, even if they just care about the bottom line, they should care about retaining physicians. And it also impacts the reviews because if the physicians are burnt out, they aren't, they're gonna be more clinical errors. The patients aren't gonna be as satisfied. So even if they approach it from a selfish aspect, which you hope they don't. They need to care. So making sure that they know that and that they offer like real resources that are confidential and that they do support people when they actually reach out.

Lillian Emlet: So those are really great lessons. Just say something to someone, anyone, someone that you can trust and that is just be able to mention it to someone because then the burden becomes lighter and surprisingly, people will have other great ideas to maybe think, help you think through, and maybe start to brainstorm or start to search for resources and for leaders.

Caring first because when you care for the people, when you care for the person first, everything else will follow. Compliance, adherence, money, retention, all those things because it is, people leave because you were not a good leader. They say if you were in some way not a good person to the team, then eventually at some point it will crack and you'll start to have more turnover.

And so don't be that leader,

One who sets caring first, because everything else we can be a lot smoother. And that is, you know why we say a group that doesn't have turnover, it's the best group to join. And then people, once they join, they don't leave that group because they have their mission straight, which is people, first people in healthcare first.

Kim Downey: percent.

Lillian Emlet: Yeah. Kim, it's been so wonderful talking with you and so we're so honored that you'd be willing to come on our podcast. I'm curious, how can people find out more about you, the books, what you're up to, what new things does stand up for Doctors have coming online,

Kim Downey: Sure. So thank you for asking. You that, and thank you for having me, and I believe I'll be interviewing you around the time that this one there. So I'm super excited for that, to turn the tables

Lillian Emlet: I.

Kim Downey: I have a YouTube channel called Standup for Doctors. And and that's again, how I'll be featuring you.

And I say so many times, every time a doctor shares their story, another doctor feels less alone. And I love sharing all of these. Stories. And then I also have on some people who are non-physicians and then physicians get to see that there are people who support us besides me, right? other people out there.

And I think that helps them to feel good and it also feel less alone when they know that there are people trying to make a difference. And actually, so our book stemmed from we, I reached out to the first 20 doctors who were guest. On my YouTube channel and 15 of them wrote chapters. A few of them wrote endorsements and, but it's actually a series and we're actually in the process now of reaching out.

This book had 15 authors. Our next book is gonna have 18 authors, and it's gonna be a series because there's many more stories to tell. I believe in your links that you'll be able to share how people can purchase the book. And I would love if you could write a review on Amazon that makes a big difference. And if you'd like to keep updated with the things I'm doing on a regular basis I know you know me on LinkedIn so people could follow me on LinkedIn. And then I also have a monthly substack newsletter where I summarize my advocacy efforts for the month. And that's a really nice summary and I just shared one today on LinkedIn and it was beautiful.

I had four in piece in person meetups lots of collaborations, lots of con conversations. So those are a few things that come to mind. And I'll be honest that I'm still in the process of figuring this out, and I'm asking the question, what could standing up for doctors look like? And I do have a website, a brand new website that is stand up for doctors.org. And the last thing I'll share is that I'll be hosting a an Epic physician retreat, the fall of 2026 Columbus State Weekend in Briarcliff Manor, New York, and that will be a weekend to connect and empower, recharge, and celebrate for doctors. So I'll be happy to share more information about that as well.

Lillian Emlet: Wow, so many cool things. So just to recap, you can follow your feel if you're watching us on YouTube, you can also follow up stand for doctors on YouTube and comment and like us and subscribe 'cause that helps both of us. And then also for the book on the Amazon, if you buy the book or buy for a colleague or do a book club to be able to have discussion, especially with your wellbeing groups and your wellbeing champions locally across your healthcare systems to leave a review.

Because that's always helped to leave reviews and share with a friend. And last, but not least, all the different ways to stay in Kim's zone, which is in her Substack monthly newsletter and also with her conference, which is coming up in fall of 2026. So Kim, thank you so much for joining us and for everyone who's listening, we'll see you next time on the next episode.

Thanks for listening, and please share with a colleague and a friend. Bye everyone.